Incoming "Watchco" Seamaster 300

guaranteed.rohu · Nov 16, 2019

not to flog a dead horse, but I think 'franken' is generally used negatively in the watch world - but for 99% of people it means parts that are 'not correct' - rather than 'not original'. Omega obviously used cal 565s and etc. in many different watches, so I think most people would say that is not a 'franken'. There's absolutely no difference between the same calibre movements regardless of which model watch they ended up in... so I don't think it's worth fretting over.

Congrats OP on the watch!! 😀

My watchco that I owned a few years back, they're great pieces!

B5rmAPG3GSa-HcViqGBr79BCfPGocAezGbiUQuUIK7UNDvYXimRjDHhcrA4QbHjk8Yl7s-ftFZYnQeCIj6dTFJpF0lRrd9swWyxviM4bX07k12JzW91LSuxuZURC77rzeXgpWJalQibdPu9S738oCe4zfCrdy57sruwTLUJuMX-5GJBS6ONRfdnN9XM9xeDbG21beCIM_39D_ETEVJ-sGjxhEtKtSOpEWPZ3cMhKi1sWjiU6CrqHznSiS_ZZbBzg8iCR68o7xCMWhTOQzOwLGTpKU2ICLL3bWanJNGCWEVDqEA9powCB4CUjqcTXZP1eM01FjHjJ7jKatw1ID6ge6r_vF0hwQP9QaTT1_gOVPEVIg6KVZGSdH38JeODOX_YkkayZ4xFET9gi3N0CZviHgR7K-htchbsAJYJ_tUYSaNPV6qJVUfpFrjhPv9QuF03gO7yzpkuGnyHLcv1AnkPLl9-Jd8zx4Bocjifox48PF-nIn-38qJmjX7iu9uVMzFj-QsBcGR0UUSJ-0UoJwYGapW3qBqVpZqocOEIdqBfhvAW-ah4PJ1HUhUTnj7uGWUg7IqDiiMFLd_PhnB3cMFHazcF_8vaeX-PZBxkxlSV90yNKTbZyQmgoobwSh0QBKfK9cLGWg-Zi5k0jzHFyx3Dil97d_8oSHpwn-F-ALF9GPRPRt-1k5sxzOQ0=w1146-h1526-no

guaranteed.rohu · Nov 16, 2019

also - extracts from archives are a bit of a joke aren't they? How many 'ultramans' have surfaced for sale in the last 12 months, with an extract from omega? 70% of the entire production ever? They don't actually guarantee the originality of all of the parts, because this is impossible. It's just mostly a way for them to make more money.

and I have absolutely no doubt that, if you took your watchco SM300 to omega, and it had a movement that was close to NOS and roughly the same year as the case serial, they would happily take your $500 and give you an extract haha.

BradleyJ. · Nov 16, 2019

guaranteed.rohu
if you took your watchco SM300 to omega......... the same year as the case serial

Do service cases come with serial numbers? I never really looked into it but I remember reading about a speedmaster that didn't have a serial number once and a reply was given that it was probably due to it being a replacement "service case". I always assumed if you had a damaged case and had it serviced that Omega wasn't gonna destroy the original case and replace it with a new case, with the same serial number. Now I'm curious if you get a new serial number or no serial number in that scenario.

padders · Nov 17, 2019

Omega only started putting serials on cases round about 1990, watches before that have none. Well if you go back far enough (like to the 1940s and earlier) some had a separate case number but that’s a different story. A replacement case for a 1960s or 1970s watch would have no serial, since the originals had no serial on the case.

Davidt · Nov 17, 2019

Poday
sorry to point out the absurdity of this metaphor, but any watch with replaced parts would be a Franken based on this logic. So when one sends in a watch for service and the mainspring, pushers, and crown are replaced, that watch is now a “franken” because the parts didn’t all start out together? Get a grip.

Of course you're right. I agree that wasnt a good analogy in this case.

However, a watch that has had parts such as the dial, movement, hands and bezel etc replaced, either with service originals by Omega or period correct ones still has major issues. When critiquing a vintage watch, even if the parts are correct, one sometimes comes to the conclusion "although largely correct, this was likely built from parts" and this has a clear impact on desirability and value (although we're getting sidetracked from the point in question now).

LeonDeBayonne · Nov 17, 2019

guaranteed.rohu
that's so nice! and have heard great things here in Aus about LWC

His good reputation has already spread across the seas to Europe and US. He is really gifted.

Archer · Nov 17, 2019

guaranteed.rohu
There's absolutely no difference between the same calibre movements regardless of which model watch they ended up in... so I don't think it's worth fretting over.

Actually, this is not correct. Not all 565 movements are the same - they came with different heights (lengths) of parts like sweep seconds pinions, cannon pinion, and hour wheels. They also come with different colour and different profiles for the date indicator.

guaranteed.rohu
and I have absolutely no doubt that, if you took your watchco SM300 to omega, and it had a movement that was close to NOS and roughly the same year as the case serial, they would happily take your $500 and give you an extract haha.

Again incorrect. If they look up the serial number of the movement, and find that it's originally from a Geneve, and it's now in a Seamaster 300 case, they will not provide an extract in that scenario.

Davidt
However, a watch that has had parts such as the dial, movement, hands and bezel etc replaced, either with service originals by Omega or period correct ones still has major issues. When critiquing a vintage watch, even if the parts are correct, one sometimes comes to the conclusion "although largely correct, this was likely built from parts" and this has a clear impact on desirability and value (although we're getting sidetracked from the point in question now).

If people view the Watchco SM300's as "vintage" and use the same level of "critiquing" as they would a proper vintage example, I think they are missing the point of the watch. Most people do not see them as vintage watches, but watches using a vintage movement.

Cheers, Al

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

Archer
If people view the Watchco SM300's as "vintage" and use the same level of "critiquing" as they would a proper vintage example, I think they are missing the point of the watch. Most people do not see them as vintage watches, but watches using a vintage movement.

Cheers, Al

Agreed. But I don't think anyone is saying that. It also doesn't make it a franken.

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

Davidt
Of course you're right. I agree that wasnt a good analogy in this case.

However, a watch that has had parts such as the dial, movement, hands and bezel etc replaced, either with service originals by Omega or period correct ones still has major issues. When critiquing a vintage watch, even if the parts are correct, one sometimes comes to the conclusion "although largely correct, this was likely built from parts" and this has a clear impact on desirability and value (although we're getting sidetracked from the point in question now).

It doesn't have any issues unless someone claims it as original.

And I thought you said you were out.

Archer · Nov 17, 2019

BlackTulip
Agreed. But I don't think anyone is saying that. It also doesn't make it a franken.

I didn't say it did...

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

I didn't say you did ;-)

Archer · Nov 17, 2019

BlackTulip
I didn't say you did ;-)

You seem very invested in what this watch is referred to. I've owned one for years, and for me personally, if someone wants to call it a franken, or a conversion, or a modded watch - all of those could apply and not be unreasonable in my view and none of them would make me enjoy it less.

The troll who kicked off this debate (again) and disappeared is getting what he wants - fighting about the name. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the troll isn't coming back insisting that it's some sort of replica, which is clearly wrong if it's made with genuine parts, then I'm good.

Carry on...

Dimitar Adamski · Nov 17, 2019

Where to get one of these? Thanks

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

Archer
You seem very invested in what this watch is referred to. I've owned one for years, and for me personally, if someone wants to call it a franken, or a conversion, or a modded watch - all of those could apply and not be unreasonable in my view and none of them would make me enjoy it less.

The troll who kicked off this debate (again) and disappeared is getting what he wants - fighting about the name. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the troll isn't coming back insisting that it's some sort of replica, which is clearly wrong if it's made with genuine parts, then I'm good.

Carry on...

There's nothing to argue about, franken describes a bastardized watch, not one built to factory spec and indistinguishable from one restored by Omega.

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

Dimitar Adamski
Where to get one of these? Thanks

They sometimes come up on eBay, Chrono 24, etc.

kingsrider · Nov 17, 2019

Sorry, a little late to this party. I love my assemblage of service and vintage parts.
Let me pose a couple of hypothetical questions. If you could assemble a 60-70's Rolex Submariner with service parts for 1/4 cost wouldn't you?.
If you could find a donor 289 Ford motor and order all the Ford service parts and build a 1965 Mustang for 1/4 the price of a vintage wouldn't you?

BradleyJ. · Nov 17, 2019

kingsrider
Let me pose a couple of hypothetical questions. If you could assemble a 60-70's Rolex Submariner with service parts for 1/4 cost wouldn't you?.
If you could find a donor 289 Ford motor and order all the Ford service parts and build a 1965 Mustang for 1/4 the price of a vintage wouldn't you?

Yes & Yes

marco · Nov 17, 2019

Dimitar Adamski
Where to get one of these? Thanks

LewiswatchCo , the best version afaik.

guaranteed.rohu · Nov 17, 2019

Archer
Actually, this is not correct. Not all 565 movements are the same - they came with different heights (lengths) of parts like sweep seconds pinions, cannon pinion, and hour wheels. They also come with different colour and different profiles for the date indicator.

Again incorrect. If they look up the serial number of the movement, and find that it's originally from a Geneve, and it's now in a Seamaster 300 case, they will not provide an extract in that scenario.

If people view the Watchco SM300's as "vintage" and use the same level of "critiquing" as they would a proper vintage example, I think they are missing the point of the watch. Most people do not see them as vintage watches, but watches using a vintage movement.

Cheers, Al

Very good point on the more minute details - on the parts to then accomodate different hands/crowns/obviously the different date wheels, which I hadn't considered. To be more specific and technically, I'd probably still highlight the point that the generic parts that are used across all cal 565s (i.e. most of the movement) are not designated to a specific single watch from the moment that they begin fabrication (nor is this done in any mass produced product-part of any type, ever, really).

To the other point around Omega refusing to provide extracts when movements don't match the cases - I've heard and read of varying degrees of accuracy to which omega do this... I have no personal experience here, but it seems some people (many) disagree, as to whether or not they have records down to 1-for-1 matches, or if it is largely groups/batches/estimates. Regardless, I think I'm just trying to make the point, if this is the case - if you replace every single other part except the part the serial number sits on, they then will give you an extract.... and attempting to defend the OP.

Good to learn more though every day for me!

BlackTulip · Nov 17, 2019

marco
LewiswatchCo , the best version afaik.

I could argue the LewisCo IS a franken - at least the ones with modified dials to look like they have radiation poisoning ;-)

Incoming "Watchco" Seamaster 300

guaranteed.rohu

guaranteed.rohu

BradleyJ.

padders

Davidt

LeonDeBayonne

Archer

BlackTulip

BlackTulip

Archer

BlackTulip

Archer

Dimitar Adamski

BlackTulip

BlackTulip

kingsrider

BradleyJ.

marco

guaranteed.rohu

BlackTulip

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