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I just bought this... help

janice&fred
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Timetron Timetron
Let's say Government recovers this watch (God forbid). One thing the Government could do to benefit all of us, would be exhibiting the watch in a Museum and sending us free invitations with 1 minute of wrist time included ::rimshot::

Well according to Achim (watchyouwant) he had one of these exact NASA Speedmasters and he freely sold it to the Omega museum. So...unless Achim is exaggerating what is there to worry about?
 
Dan S
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janice&fred janice&fred
Well according to Achim (watchyouwant) he had one of these exact NASA Speedmasters and he freely sold it to the Omega museum. So...unless Achim is exaggerating what is there to worry about?

Achim does not live in the US, the Omega museum is not in the US, and a discreet sale between Australia and Switzerland wouldn't be likely to be flagged. I don't necessarily think that the OP should worry, but it's not exactly the same situation. Logistically, most people (especially if they weren't well connected) would think to sell this in a major auction, which could be difficult if the ownership in is doubt.
 
janice&fred
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Dan S Dan S
Achim does not live in the US, the Omega museum is not in the US,

Yes we know Achim very well. However, it's doubtful the Omega museum, wherever located, would enter into a deal on a NASA watch if there was a question of whether the USA government might want it back. Omega themselves would be completely aware of who they originally sold the watch to.
 
Donko1100
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I'm from Bulgaria. An antiquarian told me that he was going to look at some antiques in a family. The woman's father, who had died, worked in Switzerland in the 70s. They gave him an Omega watch from Omega, which he was supposed to present to Todor Zhivkov (this is the head of Bulgaria from 1954 to 1989). Todor Zhivkov found it uncomfortable and had problems while wearing it and gifting it to the person in question. According to the heirs, it was sent into space and was a very special watch. Unfortunately, after the arrival of "democracy" in our country in the 90s, they were robbed.
My thinking is that the clock in question may have a similar history and I hope no one claims it and its ownership!
 
janice&fred
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Donko1100 Donko1100
My thinking is that the clock in question may have a similar history

Yes I've also heard that a few NASA Speedmasters were issued to the head of Bulgaria.
 
gatorcpa
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I was able to find the auction listing for S/N 1027 here. This is the Bonham's auction where the lot was withdrawn before sale, and also the watch for which the Extract of the Archives shown above was obtained.

I have no idea why the lot was withdrawn. The description mentions that the watch was in the possession of a German astronaut who flew on the Space Shuttle, then given by his widow to a crewmate, whose family was then selling the watch.

My speculation is that since this was a very public auction, someone at NASA said something to Bonham's about the title to the item not quite being clear, and that was the end of the auction.

With respect to a private sale that occurs outside the US, there is not much the US Government can do about it until the property returns to US jurisdiction. This is precisely what happened in the case of the King Farouk specimen of the 1933 $20 gold coin which was seized 40 years after it was withdrawn from an auction to which the US objected. Someone who acquired that coin outside the US wanted to bring it back home for another sale, the Secret Service got wind of it, and the possessor (who was a broker for another party) was arrested on the spot.

I feel bad for the OP who seemingly acquired the piece in good faith, but I fear there may be some issues if NASA is able to connect the dots here. With respect to Omega acquiring @watchyouwant's piece, Omega may know something that we don't know about the title, or they figure that until that watch is returned to the US, there is nothing to worry about.
gatorcpa
 
SC1
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Wonder if the OP returns back here and becomes a regularly contributing member?

Be cool if he did.
 
janice&fred
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Omega may know something that we don't know about the title, or they figure that until that watch is returned to the US, there is nothing to worry about.

The former is likely, and the latter not plausible. I can't imagine Omega pulling a stunt like that.
 
bananapeanut
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I used to collect Egyptian artifacts until I ran into similar issues of ownership. At the end of the day, you realize that all those artifacts were illegally acquired and Egypt wants them returned. I suspect this is the same here. It’s very unlikely that NASA gifted the watch to an engineer but perhaps they don't care about it now.
 
watchyouwant
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janice&fred janice&fred
The former is likely, and the latter not plausible. I can't imagine Omega pulling a stunt like that.

Too many assumptions now. My above mentioned sale worked out the following: It was the very early 2000 's. Mobile phones were phones. Not cameras. Cameras were mostly 35 mm film and chunky digital models . Therefore images were not taken that easy and shared around the Globe. This Speedy was most likely from the first testing batch. Engraved on the side of the middle case. Nothing flown.... eBay auction. Manufacturers like Omega, Rolex, Patek had employees searching for pieces for their museum. The eBay ID's from the Omega guys was known to me. They did bid as private persons....
.My request for more infos was not answered ; for the first time ever. Which led me to believe, there was something going on. But no info....The Speedy fetched a lot more than anticipated. The buyer had a shipping address under his own name ( which was and is connected to the Omega Museum ) and a private Biel address. Have not visited the Omega Museum since moving to Australia. Might be there, maybe the Guy kept it . Knowing what it is. And that was that
 
JwRosenthal
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bananapeanut bananapeanut
I used to collect Egyptian artifacts until I ran into similar issues of ownership. At the end of the day, you realize that all those artifacts were illegally acquired and Egypt wants them returned. I suspect this is the same here. It’s very unlikely that NASA gifted the watch to an engineer but perhaps they don't care about it now.
My parents bought a sizable amount of Pre Colombian artifacts in the 60’s while in Mexico. They were being sold by legitimate antiquities dealers and galleries at the time. Flash forward 60 years and we have a different understanding of how those artifacts were acquired.

As far as government procurement and surplus (of which I know a thing or two about), as long as the agency has the property listed as surplus (for which most only keep records for 7 years), they don’t care where it went after it left the building. We surplus property annually (life cycle) and once we fill out the forms, document the property and either trade it to a dealer for a nominal credit value (if it has any) or send it off for government surplus- it’s gone to us- we don’t care what happens to it after that.
 
janice&fred
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watchyouwant watchyouwant
Too many assumptions now.


watchyouwant watchyouwant
.My request for more infos was not answered ; for the first time ever. Which led me to believe, there was something going on. But no info....The Speedy fetched a lot more than anticipated. The buyer had a shipping address under his own name ( which was and is connected to the Omega Museum ) and a private Biel address. Have not visited the Omega Museum since moving to Australia. Might be there, maybe the Guy kept it . Knowing what it is. And that was that

And this is your "assumption" that Omega bought the watch for their museum.
 
timjohn
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But back to the OP's Omega -- Even if it did depart NASA out the back door, wouldn't the statute of limitations apply?
 
watchyouwant
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janice&fred janice&fred
And this is your "assumption" that Omega bought the watch for their museum.

Correct. That was the way it was done to keep buying prices low....
 
JwRosenthal
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timjohn timjohn
But back to the OP's Omega -- Even if it did depart NASA out the back door, wouldn't the statute of limitations apply?
From a government property viewpoint- theft is theft, it is their property for as long as the asset is listed as active.
Something to keep in mind though, the value of the property is always based on original purchase price- not current market value. Government doesn’t base value in increase based on collectibility but rather keep value at original msrp or prorate (depends on the org).
So if you were to acquire a piece of government property via legal channels (even if the prior acquisition wasn’t legal) and you could work with an attorney to settle the value of the property (rather than return it) based on the listed value from the original acquisition- that should technically satisfy any board of inquiry.
 
Spacefruit
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As an owner of one of the very few genuine star cased speedmasters built for nasa, (As opposed to loose dials thrown into cases by individuals) there is an issue of ownership here.

mine was from the second batch, never delivered to NASA and so legally can be owned.

the first batch was 58 watches.

the op watch is number 42 so I doesn’t take a genius so speculate it’s probable origin.

a good friend of mine witnessed the repossession of the Bonhams NASA watch by two huge US embassy soldiers stuffed into civilian suits.

note the different profiles on the lugs, the lack of markings lower dial, (no “SWISS” reference) and of course radial markings.

95853CF7-3A92-4729-AA11-26027E2B30E9.jpeg
 
Scarecrow Boat
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While this is unfortunately seeming more and more like another drive by evaluation, at least this time we got to witness something truly rare out in the wild. I know this tops many Grail lists and just proves unicorns do exist.
 
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