French Omegas and their numbers. Looking for info

omegastar · Feb 22, 2017

I was told that Omega France used to import gold-plated watches and then recase them in custom gold cases to avoid import duties and be competitive on the french market. So I would be very surprised if Omega Switzerland has any clue of what number was attributed to thoses cases, especially since Omega identifies watches by the movement serial number.
It would be interesting though to try and find some logic in those serial numbers.

mac_omega · Feb 22, 2017

omegastar
I was told that Omega France used to import gold-plated watches and then recase them in custom gold cases to avoid import duties and be competitive on the french market. So I would be very surprised if Omega Switzerland has any clue of what number was attributed to thoses cases, especially since Omega identifies watches by the movement serial number.
It would be interesting though to try and find some logic in those serial numbers.

To be more precise: they imported the movement, not a complete watch (not even gold plated cases) for that reason

omegastar · Feb 22, 2017

That's what I thought in the first place, then I read this somewhere as a testimony. But I can't remember where.

François Pépin · Feb 22, 2017

mac_omega
@François Pépin

Your question regarding the chronometer case backs you show:

1) the 30 Rg (SC) chronometers have:
a) a case serial number on gold cases
b) a model number (often called reference number) but no case serial# on SS cases, for example "2367" like in the image above

2) It is seldom seen on few gold cases that there are both numbers, a serial# plus case model number (aka reference#)
I have observed this only on late chronometer models around 1950

I have 3 French 30 Rg SC chronometer watches and all of them have different numbers in the case back although all of them have the same case design and same type of movement.

10.633.8xx
10.633.9xx
10.634.7xx

and an other one which was sold on ebay
10.639.485

On 2 other French cased watches of a different case type:
10.767.7xx
10.827.5xx

So the only conclusion out of this: it is a case serial number.
I support this idea from you!

Thanks! Usefull datas, which actually confirm the serial number hypothesis.

François Pépin · Feb 22, 2017

By the way, I have searched who were exactly PGF. I have seen that @mondodec asked this question some times ago without getting any answer. Other people asked on various forums with no answer either. I have cheked in various English and French sources, but did not yet find anything. Any idea?

But I have an idea about where I could find the information... I will come back here if that works.

TNTwatch · Feb 22, 2017

mac_omega
So the only conclusion out of this: it is a case serial number.

Well, of course. They are case serial numbers. I didn't say they are not. But where did they go when "reference numbers" appear?

mac_omega
a model number (often called reference number)

Often called so, but not exactly accurate. Same watch model can have another system of reference numbers also, as used in sale/marketing.

mac_omega
Do not mix up modern Omega reference numbers with numbers found on vintage cases.

Modern reference numbers contain all the pertinent information of the watch including case material, color/design of dial, type of hands etc.
So if Al Archer looks up a modern reference number in the Omega net he immediately has all information about the watch.

I think you misread me. I said Omega reference numbers is an evolution. Started with 4 digits, then 5, then 6/7, then countless numbers now. I haven't mixed anything up here.

mac_omega
If you take a case model number (e.g. 2367) of a vintage Omega (many collectors call these numbers reference numbers which is not really correct, also Omega themselves use this expression on the vintage data base site) you will never know which dial was used or which hands were installed.
Hence there is the statement on the VDB: "there existed different dials, bla bla ..."

They are reference numbers, not model numbers. This is for referencing parts. The old systems were rather limited, that's why Omega came up with the modern one.

You're incorrect to call them model numbers. Same watch model can have more than one reference numbers and officially there's no model number.

mac_omega
If you have only the case serial number of a vintage Omega (beginning with numbers around 9.5xx.xxx mio) you vitually know nothing at all other than the approximate date of production (very rough).
All these watches are identified by their movement serial# only - so if you ask for an extract you must know the movement serial number!

However it is totally the opposite with watches containing movement numbers lower than 9.5xx.xxx:
These watches are identified by their case serial number only in the books in the Omega archive.
I once tried to get information with the movement serial# only as the case had no number - it was impossible to identify the watch.

This is about the ways Omega keep record of their production and for warranty purposes, not related to parts referencing. Again, for older cases with no "reference number", how would you order parts?

François Pépin · Feb 22, 2017

TNTwatch
Again, for older cases with no "reference number", how would you order parts?

Precisely, I think the general rule is you cannot with French cased watches, as the case parts were not supplied by Omega. Maybe there are exceptions when a French cased watch is more or less the same as a Swiss one. But still, you would have to know the reference from a Swiss watch. And concerning watches, "more or less the same" is not the same!

TNTwatch · Feb 22, 2017

François Pépin
Maybe I am wrong, but I think a reference number (in your meaning) shall correspond to some specific kind of watch; if not I cannot understand how you could order part thanks to it.

The "reference numbers" that we all talk about all the time here, I mean they are for parts "referencing".

cristos71 · Feb 22, 2017

II don't have too much to add here but do support the case serial number theory. Here are a couple of my French chronometers, these two are cal 352's with the same case design, same manufacturer ( looks like JP to me ) and movement serial numbers only 143 apart. The case serial numbers are close but differ in number by 2400

so chronometers: Cal: 352 Case: 10971675 Movement: 12280707
Cal 352 Case: 10974301 Movement: 12280850

I also have a slightly later French 354 Constellation with what looks to be a PGF case. These are known as the French 2648 as that is the closest reference Swiss cased Constellation from this period.

Constellation Cal: 354 Case: 11218123 Movement: 13911896

I would be curious to know whether or not the French case serial numbering system is connected and correlated between the different case manufacturers, perhaps each manufacturer was given a block of numbers to work with?

François Pépin · Feb 22, 2017

TNTwatch
The "reference numbers" that we all talk about all the time here, I mean they are for parts "referencing".

Ok but then I cannot understand how you could order parts with serial numbers used as reference numbers. Well, I understand that various numbers particular to each watch could be related to one (hidden) reference. But that dos not make sense to me - even for Omega!

François Pépin · Feb 22, 2017

cristos71
II don't have too much to add here but do support the case serial number theory. Here are a couple of my French chronometers, these two are cal 352's with the same case design, same manufacturer ( looks like JP to me ) and movement serial numbers only 143 apart. The case serial numbers are close but differ in number by 2400

so chronometers: Cal: 352 Case: 10971675 Movement: 12280707
Cal 352 Case: 10974301 Movement: 12280850

I also have a slightly later French 354 Constellation with what looks to be a PGF case. These are known as the French 2648 as that is the closest reference Swiss cased Constellation from this period.

Constellation Cal: 354 Case: 11218123 Movement: 13911896

I would be curious to know whether or not the French case serial numbering system is connected and correlated between the different case manufacturers, perhaps each manufacturer was given a block of numbers to work with?

Thanks! Consistent with the serial number hypothesis. Your post even suggests to generalize it to different makers! Actually, it seems OK in this case - JP corresponds a known maker who also makes very good cases.

TNTwatch · Feb 22, 2017

François Pépin
Ok but then I cannot understand how you could order parts with serial numbers used as reference numbers. Well, I understand that various numbers particular to each watch could be related to one (hidden) reference. But that dos not make sense to me - even for Omega!

There's no hidden reference. mac_omega just mentioned above that Omega kept their record by the case serial numbers around 9.5m and below. And there was no reference numbers back then. That's nearly 10m watches. How do you think parts would be ordered for these watches?

mac_omega · Feb 22, 2017

TNTwatch
There's no hidden reference. mac_omega just mentioned above that Omega kept their record by the case serial numbers around 9.5m and below. And there was no reference numbers back then. That's nearly 10m watches. How do you think parts would be ordered for these watches?

Parts for the movement are ordered by caliber number.
Parts for the case can be ordered when the type of case can be identified.
The case can be identified when they look up the records using the movement serial number - then there will be a "case number" (like CK 2366, CK 2410, ....not to be mixed up with the case serial number!) This number is incorrectly called a reference number, but all the collectors and even Omega uses this expression even on the extract of the archive! They started with low numbers, 3 digits, mostly 4 digits until the 50ies, then came 5 digit numbers like 14159, and in the 60ies they arrived at 6 digits like the Railmaster 135.004-63
These 6 digit numbers were different as they already contained quite some information about the watch like: mens watch, automatik, date, chronometer grade or regular, etc. Each digit had a certain meaning...

All these numbers are correctly called "case numbers" but most people call them reference numbers which is incorrect!
I have been educated by Al Archer about this subject and now I know the difference between case number and reference number.

However: Modern reference numbers are much longer,like: "Ref. 28125237 " This modern number contains all information which is necessary to completely describe the watch. It offers information about case, movement, dial color, type and design of the hands, etc.

This is the only type of number which really deserves the name "reference number"

If you don´t believe me ask @Al Archer

TNTwatch · Feb 22, 2017

mac_omega
However: Modern reference numbers are much longer,like: "Ref. 28125237 " This modern number contains all information which is necessary to completely describe the watch. It offers information about case, movement, dial color, type and design of the hands, etc.

This is the only type of number which really deserves the name "reference number"

Not sure what was said to you or where you got that idea, but what you said here is completely incorrect. Evidence from the 1950s already has reference number:

gatorcpa · Feb 22, 2017

I agree that the 8-digit number is a case serial number.

I have seen both Swiss and French cases with serial numbers in the 11M to 12M range on watches from the early 1950's. This would be consistent with a continuation of the case numbers from Omega's chart above (not the movement serial numbers).

https://omegaforums.net/threads/omega-14311-a-chronometre-review.4566/

omega-constellation-2648-352-7-jpg.109788

https://omegaforums.net/threads/how-early-would-this-very-early-omega-constellation-be.22707/

From a post in this thread:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/fre...ers-looking-for-info.53549/page-2#post-650979

You can see more pictures of the watches that go with these casebacks in the links.

IMO the serial number sequence is valid for French and Swiss cases only. It doesn't work for UK, USA, Argentine, Brazilian or any other local production cases, solid gold or otherwise.

I apologize if someone else has already come to this conclusion, but I frankly didn't want to take the time to read the debate. Seemed like way too much back and forth on the same subjects.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

François Pépin · Feb 23, 2017

Thanks Gatorcpa! That´s very helpfull! I had seen those case numbers but forgot them in the current discussion....

So every body agree those French gold case numbers are serial numbers. And we can see now that they have some relation to previous Omega case numbers. There are still some issues or inconsistencies - the 4XX XXX numbers, for instance for some Constellations, but hey, that´s Omega world!

The remaining question is: do those numbers permit to order parts? I think several arguments here, in particular Mac-Omega last post, indicate they cannot and that case parts have to be ordered - when possible, which I beleive is usually not for French gold cases - thanks to other ways.

Actually, that debate now seems easy to cut: can watchmakers with an Omega account order parts thanks to those case serial numbers?

By the way, long discussion here but at least it permits me to get a better idea of what is a reference number, in the narrow and in the broader meaning. So thanks everyboby!

Now it is time to wear a nice French gold case 30 caliber!

mac_omega · Feb 23, 2017

@TNTwatch

I will stop the discussion now because you obviously can not be convinced and/or you did not read all of my arguments.

quote: "then there will be a "case number" (like CK 2366, CK 2410, ....not to be mixed up with the case serial number!) This number is incorrectly called a reference number, but all the collectors and even Omega uses this expression even on the extract of the archive!

So may we at least agree about the following:

1) There are the modern reference## which contain all information about the particular watch - so the watchmaker knows to order the correct parts for both, the movement and the case.

2) there are the old reference numbers like 2503, 2366 or similar (which should correctly be called case numbers) which provide only limited information about the watch.
Most collectors and other people (including the Omega staff who issue the extracts of archives) call them reference number.

This is information from Al @Archer a resident WM with Omega account as we all know and I think he knows his stuff.

He took the time to educate me on this subject in detail.

But due to the recent to and fro in the discussion I think it is better for me to further use the incorrect expression "reference number" for the old case number to avoid any confusion in future "watch talks".
.

François Pépin · Feb 23, 2017

"To further use" or rather "not to further use"?

gatorcpa · Feb 23, 2017

François Pépin
The remaining question is: do those numbers permit to order parts?

No.

Back then every distributor used their own reference number system that did not necessarily match up with what is used today on the Omega Vintage Database. I have no clue why they did that.

http://www.old-omegas.com/catde59.html

I believe the above catalog page is Swiss German and it doesn't use the same reference numbers for the Railmaster and Ranchero that are engraved on case backs.

If a watchmaker needed case parts back then, they ordered from their local distributor using local reference numbers. If a part was in stock, great. If not, then the distributor contacted Omega who was able to "translate" the request based on country of origin.

Someone gave me this Swedish catalog for ordering Omega crystals some years ago.

http://s7.photobucket.com/user/gatorcpa/library/Watch Photos/Omega Crystals List - Swedish

While the case references (and matching calibers 😀) are the standard ones we see engraved inside Omega watches, the crystals are ordered by a separate numbering system unique to Sweden.

My guess is that as Omega began taking over these local distribution networks in the 1970's, they went to a more centralized and uniform method of model identification for ordering spare parts.

Take care,
gatorcpa

TNTwatch · Feb 23, 2017

mac_omega
@TNTwatch

I will stop the discussion now because you obviously can not be convinced and/or you did not read all of my arguments.

quote: "then there will be a "case number" (like CK 2366, CK 2410, ....not to be mixed up with the case serial number!) This number is incorrectly called a reference number, but all the collectors and even Omega uses this expression even on the extract of the archive!

Sorry, I stopped trying to reply to this quote because you brought out those "case numbers" to answer my question about cases without those numbers yet.

So may we at least agree about the following:

1) There are the modern reference## which contain all information about the particular watch - so the watchmaker knows to order the correct parts for both, the movement and the case.

I have no argument here.

2) there are the old reference numbers like 2503, 2366 or similar (which should correctly be called case numbers) which provide only limited information about the watch.
Most collectors and other people (including the Omega staff who issue the extracts of archives) call them reference number.

This is information from Al @Archer a resident WM with Omega account as we all know and I think he knows his stuff.

He took the time to educate me on this subject in detail.

But due to the recent to and fro in the discussion I think it is better for me to further use the incorrect expression "reference number" for the old case number to avoid any confusion in future "watch talks".
.

I just have to respectfully disagree here. I don't know what Al said, but I posted a picture of an official paper by Omega from the 1950s showing the "Ref." was already used back then, not just for the modern system. Plenty more evidence can be found showing "reference numbers" in the 1960s and 1970s.

It's definitely not just collectors and some Omega employees who use "reference numbers", but it's has been used in official Omega documents since the 1950s, still being used in the Omega Vintage database, was used throughout official publication like AJTT. Well, "reference number" is not unique to Omega either, but had been used by other brands in the industry for a long time also.

You can keep using whichever terms you like, but it's not correct to say those older "case" numbers are not reference numbers.

French Omegas and their numbers. Looking for info

omegastar

mac_omega

omegastar

François Pépin

François Pépin

TNTwatch

François Pépin

TNTwatch

cristos71

François Pépin

François Pépin

TNTwatch

mac_omega

TNTwatch

gatorcpa

François Pépin

mac_omega

François Pépin

gatorcpa

TNTwatch

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