FRANCE!

PatrickJ · Nov 15, 2015

For good or bad the last 25yrs have caused a definite shift in the way the world solves its problems. Around that early 1990's I lived in a rented room in a house, the landlady owner was an old 70 yr old retired architect. She said all this new computer technology will make us work harder and not improve our real quality of life, with the exception of medical care. She forgot to mention all the terrible things it would bring in the wrong hands. There is another point of view to this of course, yesterday's events for some reason brought back memories of that landlady.

Tony C. · Nov 15, 2015

Wetworks
That you feel what you put forth, especially that "documentary", as something factual is part of the problem (actually it's a huge part of the problem). This is something that transcends politics; how one reacts to adversity or oppression is dictated primarily by cultural/ethical/religious influences. If you care to dispute that I ask you take a beat to consider other similarly exploited/persecuted groups in recent history and objectively reflect on how they responded before you tell me I'm some sort of "neocon."

Implying that factual claims are false is meaningless unless you can actually back it up. Feel free to dispute specific facts that are laid out in the BBC series, and I will be happy to debate them. It appears to me, based on information available from many different sources, that the series is essentially accurate. It is also well understood that U.S. foreign policy has fomented, rather than reduced terrorism, that the invasion of Iraq was a complete disaster, and that ISIS is a by-product of the aftermath, etc. So again, if you have any claims to the contrary based on facts, feel free to present them. The same goes for what the U.S. and France have done in Syria, and how those actions helped set the stage for the blowback that we are now seeing.

Pseudo-intellectualism and hand-wringing over Western rights and wrongs isn't going to solve anything here; simplistically, sometimes you have to punch the nose of the guy that punches you. Want to say that the US is a bully? Go right ahead, but we aren't beating on people who are just standing around on the sidelines minding their own business like the poor victims out having a nice Friday night in Paris or the 2K+ that went to work or boarded planes on 9/11. That's barbarism.

Ah, so you not only believe that the "war on terror" is winnable, but that should be prosecuted by raining further death and destruction on Muslims. Well, I'm sorry that you aren't aware of this, but terrorism is a tactic, and no war against a tactic will ever be won.

Furthermore, your second sentence reveals a remarkable lack of insight into the Iraq war. Are you really not aware that Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11? Are you not aware that there was no WMD threat? Are you not aware that hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis were killed or maimed thanks to the (arguably illegal) American invasion? Are you not aware that ISIS did not exist prior to the power vacuum left in the wake of the invasion and occupation? Those are all well understood and accepted facts.

To call what happened in Paris "barbaric" is reasonable; to be blind to how that same word applies at least equally to the U.S. invasion of Iraq is to be blind to the facts.

Said what I had to say for the most part, I'll not respond to what is sure to be a partisan-driven response, so have a nice day.

Why am I not surprised that you would end with another ad hominem attack?

Nobel Prize · Nov 15, 2015

All the points brought in by Tony are not only not particularly partisan but are accurate.

Even Bush Senior acknowledges the mess and the effect warmongering policies of his sons presidency had on international affairs.

The rest mentioned as to the formation of Isis etc is also accurate.

It's history, not partisan propaganda.

Darlinboy · Nov 15, 2015

Those you who continue to clutter up this once-upon-a-time sympathy & support thread with 🤬 of all flavors are kindly and unapologetically invited to kiss my ass.

And that, my OF friends, is a fact.

Nobel Prize · Nov 15, 2015

Darlinboy
Those you who continue to clutter up this once-upon-a-time sympathy & support thread with 🤬 of all flavors are kindly and unapologetically invited to kiss my ass.

And that, my OF friends, is a fact.

Very fair. My apologies and indeed.

Vive la France !!

Tony C. · Nov 15, 2015

There is nothing disrespectful about discussing possible causes of, and solutions to such violence. And it is worth noting that no one has bothered to start a "sympathy and support" thread in honor of the Iraqi Shia who have been dying by the hand of ISIS.

For a bit of perspective, the number of civilians killed in Iraq went from 4,623 in 2012, to 9,473 in 2013, and to 17,045 in 2014 (that's seventeen thousand), according to Iraqi Body Count, an independent website. A high proportion of those killed were Shia victims of Isis bombers and executioners.

abrod520 · Nov 15, 2015

It should also be noted that we discuss these causes of violence in response to comments on this sympathy-and-support thread with calls for the blood of Muslims. My first thought upon hearing of such tragedies is of course sympathy for those affected and their families, and I doubt highly that anyone here felt any different.

So yes, let's bury that bit and keep the people of Paris in our thoughts as they recover from this miserable weekend.

VictorAlpha · Nov 15, 2015

Its not about assigning blame. That's what people do when they want to avoid accountability. The solution lies in genuinely understanding and acknowledging ones own role in throwing fuel on the fire as well as the terrorists role, part of what Tzun Tsu referred to as knowing yourself and knowing your enemy.. That way you can change the fundamental way that things are done. Then you send warriors to do their work and you do not muzzle them with stupid ROE. This work cannot be done from 20'000 ' AGL and it cannot be done with your arms tied behind your back, it needs to be done in the trenches so to speak and it needs to be done without mercy. That is the reality of that work it is not for the faint-hearted and to do it the way it has been done also creates needless mayhem and fuels the fire. Going to war is an extension of diplomacy but it is meant to be a decisive measure not a long drawn out campaign run by lobbyists, lawyers, government, business, media, risk assessors and other interested parties.

Unfortunately actually finding a lasting resolution is beyond the will and capability of career politicians who would rather play both sides and assign blame. Because of this we won't see any resolution to it anytime soon and I fear that this will be the beginning of a new and awful chapter in our history.

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

Hi from Paris. That's hard. I live a mile from the Bataclan concert hall. 3 of a buddy's friends were shot there and also some young friends of my best friend's daughter. What you must know is that these Paris areas are very packed with young people after work as they have many trendy bars and restaurant. Moreover the weather waq mild. We call them "les bobos" (bourgeois bohème) to mock them gently. Many of them work in show business, press, art and so on.
They (these bastards) slaughtered some brillant and tolerant people here to attend a rock concert or just have a drink with friends. I don't mean others are crap.
They knew what they were doing. They hate the way we live, they hate our freedom, the hate seing people enjoying life, they hate seing free girls wearing skirts. these pricks have no balls, no pride, shooting with AK47 25 years old kids... what a glory.
Cristos please... many muslim were killed too. A man lost his 2 sisters. One of her had a 8 years old daughter. 2 sisters with a arabic name (probably french with algerian origins) were celebrating one of them's birthday. Please have a little self control.
These syrians that come to Europe are the result of our cowardness in the Syrian war. Bachar's killed almost 250 000 people alone.
Just have a look at this page, I'm sorry it's in french :
http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/15/la-jeunesse-qui-trinque_1413680
just seing the pictures makes me sick. Don't worry, we're not afraid, life will go on. They can kill some of them they won't kill us all.

EDIT : sorry, i have just corrected some mistakes, I'm not an english native speaker as you can guess.

Nobel Prize · Nov 15, 2015

Kwijibo
Hi from Paris. That's hard. I live a mile from the Bataclan concert hall. 3 of a buddy's friends were shot there and also some young friends of my best friend's daughter. What you must know is that theses Paris areas are very packed with young people as they have many trendy bars and restaurant. We call them "les bobos" (bourgeois bohème) to mock them gently. Many of them work in show business, press, art and so on.
They (these bastards) slaughtered some brillant and tolerant people. I don't mean others are crap.
They knew what they were doing. They hate the way we leave, they hate our freedom, the hate seing people enjoying life. these pricks have no balls, shooting with AK47 25 years old kids... what a glory.
Cristos please... many muslim were killed too. A man lost his 2 sisters. One of her had a 8 years old daughter. These syrian that come to Europe are the result of our cowardness in the Syrian war. Bachar's killed almost 250 000 people alone.
Just have a look at this page, I'm sorry it's in french :
http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/15/la-jeunesse-qui-trinque_1413680
just seing the pictures makes me seek. Don't worry, we're not afraid, life will go on. They can kill some of them they won't kill us all.

Hang in there!! I'm sorry for your loss and that of your friends and family .

There is no easy way

OmegaSean · Nov 15, 2015

Such powerful lyrics

Thought to all our compatriots in France at this terrible time

OmegaSean

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

thanks Sergio,
to some others, saying that these terrorists come with boat people is just ludicrous. They have money, they can have fake passports, Many of theses terrorists are fench brain washed ex juvenile delinquants, born in France. They don't have a single idea of what islam is. (I Don't mean to open a debate on who's more or less french, that's not the point). Many muslims in France are scared of these pricks because they are considered as bad muslims because they dare having a occidental way of living. As we say in french "ils ont le cul entre deux chaises" (they sit their asses between two chairs?). Some of muslim people I work with apologize for these assholes because they don't want to be compared with these scumbags, that makes me furious. Paris is a bit like NYC, we all live together, most of the time in peace, or ignoring each other regardless of origins or religion.
More over many muslims in France are refugees from the algerian civil war (120 000 deads in the 90's) and other tyranic and corrupted regimes : journalist, artists, etc..

Nobel Prize · Nov 15, 2015

In fact all of the attackers on the January attacks in France and the attacker identified on this one so far where born and raised French. So....

Its like everything we discussed, disenfranchised people finding or being offered a vehicle to challenge their anger, frustrations or bias.

LouS · Nov 15, 2015

alam
stand by for the scenes of Mirage(s) taking off....

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

exactly. These people are more ex- little drug dealers, bank robbers from the ghettos surrounding Paris. They never made a prayer before being brain washed by ISIS videos on youtube. Many of them took a trip to Syria as a kind off springbreak. Wow so fun to hold an AK47 for real. The same as those in January.
Tomorrow, I will take the tube to go to work, I will have a beer in a bar after work with friends, we will cry a bit then I will look a girls passing by, To sum up, I will enjoy this unique feeling of freedom an culture we have in Paris. F... them.
(well beer is not culture I guess 😀 )

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

I hate war, but these guys (or animals) no nothing but violence. Rafale I guess, not Mirage. We have the means to strike wherever we want on the planet.

LouS · Nov 15, 2015

Kwijibo
I hate war, but these guys (or animals) no nothing but violence. Rafale I guess, not Mirage. We have the means to strike wherever we want on the planet.

It's done. Raids launched this evening. There must be follow-through though.

abrod520 · Nov 15, 2015

Kwijibo
Tomorrow, I will take the tube to go to work, I will have a beer in a bar after work with friends, we will cry a bit then I will look a girls passing by, To sum up, I will enjoy this unique feeling of freedom an culture we have in Paris. F... them.
(well beer is not culture I guess 😀 )

Tomorrow I will do the same, in New York. We'll be with you and your friends in spirit. And if you feel like some real culture, switch to cocktails 😉 I did over a year ago and haven't looked back!

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

It's not a pleasure seing rafales dropping bomb but we must stop these animals. The problem is that they hold a lot of civilians hostages and some will be killed. Here in Europe we have a strong memory about the atrocities and occupation of the second world war. french a generally pacifists but we riched a limit there.

Kwijibo · Nov 15, 2015

abrod520
Tomorrow I will do the same, in New York. We'll be with you and your friends in spirit. And if you feel like some real culture, switch to cocktails 😉 I did over a year ago and haven't looked back!

We Americans and french like to tease each others. But when things get hairy we share the same love of freedom and general values. Well, Paris and NY share an extra special thing.
Sorry I make so many mistake. It's late and pressure is still high. I'm going to bed folks.

thanks for your support. Don't cry for us, just enjoy life please.

FRANCE!

PatrickJ

Tony C.

Nobel Prize

Darlinboy

Nobel Prize

Tony C.

abrod520

VictorAlpha

Kwijibo

Nobel Prize

OmegaSean

Kwijibo

Nobel Prize

LouS

Kwijibo

Kwijibo

LouS

abrod520

Kwijibo

Kwijibo

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