Replacing the movement is usually a far cheaper solution if the movement is in current production. If it's a collectible vintage watch, then yes servicing might be the way to go, but you may need a donor movement anyway for parts. The Japanese are terrible with keeping parts on hand after the model or movement is discontinued - they make the Swiss look fantastic in this regard. But if a new movement is available, servicing is going to be a lot more money.

Cheers, Al

 

exactly my issue with a world time I purchased off of ebay- seller didn't list that the internal bezel didn't rotate (insanely common issue with those) and the date wheel was swapped for an incorrect one during service, but can't complain too much. It holds time beautifully, case is in amazing shape, and it cost me 47$.

See above

Not keen on newer seikos. The vintage ones appeal to me greatly, however.

 

So after stripping, cleaning, drying and re-assembling the train, I'm getting this.

Not bad for a 30 year old movement that had never seen a screwdriver

Only tested in face down so far, will do the others maybe tomorrow.

Lift Angle set at 54.5 degrees, amplitude only about 200.

Or should it be better?

Comment invited.

(of course I showed the best trace, but 0 to -4 seconds per day is about the variation).

 

@JimInOz if it runs half as good as the one you repaired and serviced for me it's a winner. 15 days hasn't lost more than 7 seconds total putting it through a heap of work over here.

 

Hi Jim

This is a Seiko 6309 I think and my table of lift angle also shows 54.5 degrees. If you’ve just started it up, you might win 10% or so more amplitude after a few days running but that does seem low to start with. I have read somewhere that Seiko movements suffer from low amplitude as I have been experiencing lowish values on some Omega 550 series and discussed it with Al. It may have been he that mentioned the low Seiko amplitude but I’m not sure. If I can get 250 degrees with a 550 based movement, I am now more relaxed.

You really want the Seiko spec but for movements where I don’t have the specifications, I’ve been viewing minimum amplitude as 160 degrees at +24H because that’s what I’ve seen in the Omega specs. That would be for all 5 positions (excluding 12H) for me. I don’t think I’ve ever measured less than about 180 though at 24H even in a poor movement and I would not be too happy with that.

The Witschi training “Measuring Technology and Troubleshooting for Watches” on Page 15 shows:

250-330 for horizontal at full wind and 210-280 at +24H.

250-270 for vertical at full wind and 210-230 at +24H.

I think these are a bit ambitious for some of the old movements we have but most of mine fit in those values or are close. Let’s see if Al says anything about this. Nice straight line in your graph so the wheels all seem to be running true. No beat error - is this an adjustable stud carrier or do you have to move the collet?

I’ll follow this thread with interest as I’ve just bought my first Seiko, a UFO. Couldn’t resist having a go at this very complex looking 6138. Haven’t seen it yet as it’s stuck in the post but I believe it will be too big for me to wear comfortably.... Will need a second hand for it - do you have a source for Seiko parts?

Cheers, Chris

 

^In re the Seiko 6138, I bought my nos spares from schillachi61 on eBay a few years ago. Try contacting him to see if there is anything left. Also, post a wtb ad on the Seiko/Citizen forum. If you are OK with aftermarket parts, eBay definitely has you covered.

It's a cool watch.

 

Jim - If that's full wind in a horizontal position, that's pretty low, even for a Seiko. I would hope to see something more like 240+ full wind horizontal if you can get it.

Chris - yes that was probably me who told you that. The first Seiko I did I could not get up to what I consider a normal range, and when I asked some other watchmakers about it, they all told me the same thing - Seikos tend not to have great amplitude. I don't service a lot of them, but this is the case for every one I've ever serviced - the highest I think I've seen going through a few photos just now is in the 260's.

BTW good luck on the 6138. Remember not to clean the central chronograph runner in the cleaning machine. I hope you asked if the watch ran with the chronograph off - that runner can seize up and not all variations are available. Is it an A or B version?

Cheers, Al

 

It looks a heck of a watch and I hope mine looks as good but I suspect it will dwarf my wrist.

Will check out those suggestions for parts, thanks and let you know how it looks when I get it.

 

Hi Al

Yes, apparently it runs perfectly with chrono on or off. It is a 6138B although I've not seen it yet nor identified what the A to B differences are. Good tip on the cleaning, thanks, have not investigated that far yet. I'll build up to it as it looks very complicated although the manual seems fairly clear. Although the cost of the watch was not much, the parts availability looks poor so am hoping nothing needs replacing.

My Chronostop 865 train is back in and hope to run the base movement this evening. The manual is great with it's assembly sequence and oiling points but, dare I say, is a bit less satisfying to do because of that (think that makes sense). I'm using the 1861 manual so I'm missing quite a few parts.

Good practice for when I do my '97 Speedmaster. Based on this thread and some others, I have not been wearing it as it is approx 10 years since it's last service and although it shows 310 degrees in CH at full wind, who knows if all is well inside. So, thanks for this thread, Jim.

Cheers, Chris

 

Wow, so much damage and still running. What a trooper!

 

For additional reference, here's the servicing video for a Seiko 6139 that I now own. Amplitude in the 250-260 range is about normal and you can verify this further by looking through some of the other videos posted by that user.

 

This guy is probably still running the oil in his car put there by the factory

"Break in" oil...leave it in until it breaks

 

Thanks for the feedback, especially Al (always informative).

Amplitude has come up to 220 max and keeping reasonable time although the beat error crept up to 0.2ms so I'll have to tweak that.

Reading in various places, it seems that 6309s seem to function perfectly well between 180 and 230 so while Swiss movements are much higher. So if I can't get it higher I'll call it a day.

It is after all it's first service in over thirty or so years, and I don't have the high level skills of a pro watchmaker which is probably what's needed to get it really swinging.

Update in a few days after I get it cased and time it in the case with all of the additional components fitted.

 

It's probably scared to lose time in case you decide to use it for a lure or feed it to the crocs

 

Now that the movement has been done, time for the case.

The bezel area looked OK, but I thought I'd have a look underneath.

Ummmmmmm.............



So remove all components and clean, wire brush the rust from the stainless rings, ultrasonic clean, lube the old crystal gasket, re-assemble.



Then bezel cleaned and dried, new bezel o-ring, bezel click oiled and back together. Looks ready for the movement!

(that bezel is beautiful, only @STANDY has a better one )

I was tempted to polish the case a bit, but it has nice soft wear without any serious gouges so I've left it to match the age of the rest of the watch.



So that's where we are at the moment. I'm waiting for a new crown/stem/spring (first one was faulty ) and then I can get it all back together and adjust it.

 

So what's going on here?

The dial had some runs coming from the lume, probably due to the large amount of condensation, you can see the little tracks running up from the lower markers, some more on the others as well.



After seeing some dial restore horror stories, I decided to do a minimalist clean. So with some purified water and a teeny camel hair brush, I gritted my teeth and got to work.



While not back to NOS, it's as far as I wanted to go and still let the dial show some age. A lot better I think.



Now to case it up ready for final regulation.

 

That's a terrific improvement Jim. I am very nervous about doing anything like that but you've given me some (probably misplaced) confidence. Thanks.

 

I admit I was a bit apprehensive, but using the smallest brush (trimmed of stray hairs) dipped in body temperature water and then wiped on a tissue before gently touching the brush to the marks. Keep repeating until the brush has picked up all of the residue.
I didn't go onto the markers or the print just in case it got nasty.

I might dig out some old dials and practice various tecniques, but not the dishwasher method (just yet).

 

Only advice I can give with regards to cleaning dials is...only clean it if you are prepared to destroy it.

Cheers, Al

 

Cleaning the matte finish dial is tough because almost anything you do will make marks and it's difficult to remove anything. A shiny/lacquer finish is equally troublesome because you don't know how it will respond. For one never use alcohol. Even water can leave marks and rubbing can break it down.

When I disassemble a watch the very first thing I do after uncasing the movement and removing hands is remove the dial. It then goes in a separate covered tray by itself. It's only taken out when the dial is ready to be put back on. Doing this there is no new dust and debris and there is no chance in damaging it or making new marks. I often see a beautiful dial with a few eye sore scratches and dings and wonder about the carelessness it took to make these. Scratches from removing the hands are irksome because these can so easily be avoided.