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Dont only buy the seller, do your homework too

Z
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Hi all,

Just wanted to share my experience hunting for a Universal Geneve Tri Compax.

About a week ago, I was browsing Matthew Bain's website and noticed a lovely UG Tri-Compax 12552 (which I was told was in mint condition, all original, and had no parts replaced). Being new to the world of watches, I was impulsive and upon searching and finding (many positive) reviews about Matthew Bain Inc, I decided to plump for the watch, having done little to no research about the watch prior (stupid, I know).

After settling on a price, I transferred them the money for the watch. However, I started feeling paranoid and researched up on examples of other 12552s. You could imagine my horror when I found no other example of 12552 that looked like the one I purchased. Upon further digging, I found that it was the exact same watch that surfaced at a Christie's auction a year ago (https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...f-53d97fada269) that had been appraised by Omega Forum members and determined that it had underwent a redial, as well as a moonphase and crown replacement (https://omegaforums.net/threads/ug-t...d.48137/page-9), which was in stark contrast to what I was told. The photos of the watch in question are listed below.

Luckily I was able to get the watch refunded before it was shipped so no lasting harm was done, but please use this as a cautionary tale to don't be as stupid as me. I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything I'm sharing my experience as a cautionary tale.

Thank you for reading this 😀
 
15508-z.jpg 15508-z2.jpg 15508-z3.jpg 15508-z5x.jpg 15508-z6x.jpg 15508-z7.jpg 15508-z10.jpg 15508-z12.jpg 15508-z13.jpg
southtexas
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There are some problems with some of his Rolex items discussed at TRF also.
 
Dan S
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I totally agree that "buy the seller" is overrated advice.
 
rolokr
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Replacement crowns don’t bother me, but redials are the most important factor.in originality ! I don’t think any Tri-Compax had signed crowns till the twisted lug ones in the late 50s going into the 60s.
 
guaranteed.rohu
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Great call out, 'buy the seller' particularly with vintage watches I agree is overrated. Particularly with auction houses. You have to give Matthew Bain the benefit of the doubt, and say it was just laziness/an accident in this case....

Detailed story of being burnt by a 'collector' Janez Grom aka Vintage_Kronos:
I had a very disappointing experience with an 'established' collector, Janez Grom or vintage_kronos on instagram. We agreed to trade watches, for his omega seamaster cal 321. He told me it was legit and original, and being a bit earlier into my collecting career (and seeing his vast collection) I trusted him! Turns out with a bit more investigation, it was a blatant redial. It also had the wrong sized crystal (that was squeezed on), and wrong parts in the movement, and did not function.

I suspect in hindsight he knew this and just wanted to palm it off to someone else (a chump like me). I messaged him on this, and he stopped responding completely, so I then called him out online. Still yet to get any sort of compensation for this (and likely never will), spent around 1200 USD on getting a correct replacement dial, new parts, and a full service.

URL:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/vintage_kronos-scammer-alert.81072/#post-1096058
 
Z
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Yeah I don't think MB is a dishonest seller or is out to cheat anyone. It probably is an honest mistake. Its just a good learning experience which I felt was worth sharing to emphasise a point that bears repeating: do your homework.
 
WatchCor
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Thanks for posting this. In my opinion buying the seller and doing your homework are equally important and must when multiplied together must reach a certain threshold.

Neither one can be zero but a very trustworthy , with prior dealings dealer with many recommendation can decrease the needed amount of homework on a specific watch and vice versa. With a unknown dealer or a private sale extra amount of homework is needed.

T = Dₜ • Hʷ 😁
 
Z
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Ah yes. Math, the bane of my existence but very well put and I wholly agree
 
shaun hk
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Maybe it was laziness and a touch of arrogance, however when you pay the extra that MB and other big name dealers charge, what you are paying for is their knowledge and honesty. You are effectively paying for peace of mind.
At least they did the right thing and cancelled the transaction.
 
MCC
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@guaranteed.rohu you have certainly mixed it with some scammers on your collecting journey 😀😜

My approach is usually to research the watch I want first and then look for some suitable examples and see who has that model for sale and what their reputation is like. I have made the odd impulse purchase but only when I have spotted something that a seller I know or that has a cast iron reputation is selling.

A big part of the fun is chasing down the watch you want !!
 
P
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Always worth trying a reverse image search on Google, if the seller is lazy (using older photos) you have a chance of finding a history and commentary if discussion in forums.
 
jsducote
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P percymon
Always worth trying a reverse image search on Google, if the seller is lazy (using older photos) you have a chance of finding a history and commentary if discussion in forums.
Yet another reason why all threads should have pictures.
 
Adam2941
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Great post, and thanks for the reminder. That is a very obvious redial, btw, and an over-polished case, among the other problems noted in this thread. As for the dial, aside from the overall too-clean appearance, the slightly rounded edges around each of the sub-dials are giveaways. Original dials have very sharp edges there. For some reason redialers do not seem to be able to reproduce that detail, or simply don't try.

Here is another comment, which I hope does not sound harsh: You caught yourself, which is great, and you are now all the wiser for it. We all make mistakes as we learn about watch collecting. The comment is this--there is a market for everything, and maybe the people who do not notice the problems with this watch, and happily buy it, are the best people to own it. It will make them happy, and the seller will make his money. If you trust someone else to advise you how to spend your money, you get what you get.
 
Joe_A
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MCC MCC
@guaranteed.rohu you have certainly mixed it with some scammers on your collecting journey 😀😜

My approach is usually to research the watch I want first and then look for some suitable examples and see who has that model for sale and what their reputation is like. I have made the odd impulse purchase but only when I have spotted something that a seller I know or that has a cast iron reputation is selling.

A big part of the fun is chasing down the watch you want !!

I agree with all of the above. The hunt is part of the pleasure of collecting whether one bags the game or not.

I'm still relatively new having started to collect a handful of watches in the past couple of years.

One thing that struck me in the OP post is a surrender to an impulse to buy. Who among us is completely immune?

Over time, we may learn enough about a couple of favorite brands and specific models within the brand to immediately recognize a good buy when we see it. But it takes time to get to such a point and even then, one cannot hope to know all there is to know.

I would expect that, on occasion, anyone may fall prey to an impulse to purchase a watch not sufficiently researched.

We must resist such impulses! 😉
 
bgrisso
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Hang on everyone. I didn't read this thread carefully, I just casually took it at face value. However when I see someone say this is obvious redial.................it made me go back and look more carefully.

This the OP watch in higher magnification......
 
Tri Compax.jpg
bgrisso
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There is inaccurate information in this thread, especially in the first post. The OP says that people here on OF concluded this was a redial with replacement moonphase and crown and links to the earlier thread.

If you jump to that thread, this is not the conclusion reached. You see people discussing the dial as not being period correct with the case, and terms used like a later "re-issue" dial, which I'm not completely clear on what that means, although I think they are suggesting a factory service dial.

It's extremely important to understand the differences in terminology and not get fuzzy on the details.

If you look at the dial above, the printing is quite nice. There are some slightly odd things, such as the centering in the seconds sub dial and the flat Vs in the Universal Geneve text, and so on. However the printing is so good that I would need to research in more detail to reach a conclusion. I certainly would not call this an obvious redial. (It does not appear period correct but that is a separate issue. Side note, how would you get a later looking dial (50s/60s) to fit on a cal 287?).

Onto the issue of other mismatched time period parts, that is obviously a problem because this is a 40s case, which should not have a faceless moon or a signed crown.

As far as I can tell, that thread discussion was left as probable later service dial (however I have not seen other service dials printed in this "later" style?) in a 40s case, but it was not fully concluded.

So in that regards I would not call this completely original, or pay a premium to a dealer, but I'm not personally resolved on the dial. I don't think anyone is saying it left the factory that way. But is it a later dial from another watch, a service dial, or a redial ? Dunno and not especially motivated to put in the hours......
Edited:
 
10H10
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This has nothing to do with this particular post but...
With all respect to all OF members, I met about a week ago in Milano a customer who bought me a rare UG, he showed me his UG collection, it was very impressive both by quality and quantity.
So I asked him if he was a member or posting his watches on forums like OF or else and he told me that he doesn't do that because in the forums there are always people making critics like experts and 'bashing' good watches...
Actually, I like the forum but I have to agree with him sometimes...😉
 
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