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(Cars) First new Bently Blower in 90 years ...
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OMTOM
·It is a strange/sad fact that there are considerably more Bentley 'Blowers' in existence than were ever made. The 'others' are known as 'bitzers' (bits of this and bits of that). Of course they all look just as lovely - and drive as well. Not unknown in the watch world!
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flw
··history nerdThe original James Bond car.
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STANDY
·- Data provided by laser-scanned, 3D CAD model of Bentley’s own 1929 4½-litre supercharged Team Car raced by Sir Henry ‘Tim’ Birkin
isn’t this the same wording as the 321
the schematics were scanned from an original 2nd generation caliber 321, in a reference ST 105.003, which had been worn by astronaut Gene Cernan on Apollo 17.
Gotta love Marketing gobbledygook 😁😁😁
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eugeneandresson
·My take (from working in a company where this was done from biological CT scans) @STANDY is that these days, everything mechanical is designed in 3D modelling environments, or needs to get there for engineering (design - simulation included) and manufacturing, and its most likely quicker/easier to create 3D models this way then to do it manually by hand-creation off of 2D drawings (although I can imagine those might be used to validate/check things like tolerances etc once the models are already in CAD software). But thats just my take and second-hand experience (creating models from 2D CT scans is already a time consuming job as it is). There is a reason why people do this, and I sincerely do not beleive the primary reason is marketing (that is a nice side-effect though). I await the scorn of the masses (and shall refrain from further comment). YMMV.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerMy take (from working in a company where this was done from biological CT scans) @STANDY is that these days, everything mechanical is designed in 3D modelling environments, or needs to get there for engineering (design - simulation included) and manufacturing, and its most likely quicker/easier to create 3D models this way then to do it manually by hand-creation off of 2D drawings (although I can imagine those might be used to validate/check things like tolerances etc once the models are already in CAD software). But thats just my take and second-hand experience (creating models from 2D CT scans is already a time consuming job as it is). There is a reason why people do this, and I sincerely do not beleive the primary reason is marketing (that is a nice side-effect though). I await the scorn of the masses (and shall refrain from further comment). YMMV.
I think a medical scan is a different thing, as you are modelling a "one off" with many unknown physical attributes I suspect.
Yes indeed most product design is done in 3D systems these days, but honestly with a known entity (like a Cal. 321 movement), having a scan done would not materially benefit the generation of 3D models in my opinion. Even if it did save some time, it certainly would not be a "necessary" step in the process by any stretch of the imagination.
For a car, I have no idea what it was actually used for. I could see it being of some use for example on body panels maybe, but other than that, not sure what purpose it was used for in this specific instance. The fact that these marketing blurbs mention the scan, but don't really explain in what manner the scan was used, makes it feel very flaky to me.
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STANDY
·My take (from working in a company where this was done from biological CT scans) @STANDY is that these days, everything mechanical is designed in 3D modelling environments, or needs to get there for engineering (design - simulation included) and manufacturing, and its most likely quicker/easier to create 3D models this way then to do it manually by hand-creation off of 2D drawings (although I can imagine those might be used to validate/check things like tolerances etc once the models are already in CAD software). But thats just my take and second-hand experience (creating models from 2D CT scans is already a time consuming job as it is). There is a reason why people do this, and I sincerely do not beleive the primary reason is marketing (that is a nice side-effect though). I await the scorn of the masses (and shall refrain from further comment). YMMV.
Well omega still had most of the 321 parts in the back of the workshop as most parts are still available. 😗
Worked as a marketing rep for one of the biggest companies in the world and I know marketing speak very well. ( Rothmans of PallMall - they were that good people thought cigarettes weren’t bad for you )
Notice they both used the legendary sentiments by using an Astronaut and a Race Legend
And they want people to believe they scanned every bolt and made them 🤦 I bet half the bolts are made by someone else and just ordered to spec.
These companies spend more on marketing than you would believe.
Case being Rolex steel is that good a steel the magic 904L steel.
Well here is some 904L kitchen sink parts 😲
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...Did the Blowers actually win races? I was under the impression that they didn’t win, and where used as Jack rabbits to force other mfg’s to try and catch them and they would all break down allowing the non blower Bentlys to win.
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eugeneandresson
·One thing that does jump to mind is that as-built parts can differ to as-designed parts. An already-working model is thus able to be recreated, easily, by this technique into a digital model that actually works. I can't imagine why anyone would do this if it the con's outweighed the pro's. Google is your friend, I am certain one can find a lot of information as to why this is a common and popular method for reverse engineering mechanical models.
Edit: I agree, the marketing is a nice side-effect, but that can't be all.
Edit: I agree, the marketing is a nice side-effect, but that can't be all.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerOne thing that does jump to mind is that as-built parts can differ to as-designed parts. An already-working model is thus able to be recreated, easily, by this technique into a digital model that actually works. I can't imagine why anyone would do this if it the pro's outweighed the con's. Google is your friend, I am certain one can find a lot of information as to why this is a common and popular method for reverse engineering mechanical models.
Since you have experience with this, what sort of accuracy can a scan create? Can it determine the size of something that is say 8/100th's of a mm in diameter, with a tolerance of +/- .001 mm?
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eugeneandresson
·Since you have experience with this, what sort of accuracy can a scan create? Can it determine the size of something that is say 8/100th's of a mm in diameter, with a tolerance of +/- .001 mm?
I have helped create a system that was able to generate a 3D model with a worst-case accuracy of about 10 micrometers. That was using lasers and a camera, so not even any fancy electromagnetic techniques using high-frequency (so low wavelength) waves (edit: or X-rays etc).
Edited:
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI have helped create a system that was able to generate a 3D model with an worst-case accuracy of about 10 micrometers. That was using lasers and a camera, so not even any fancy electromagnetic techniques using high-frequency (so low wavelength) waves.
Okay, but I'm referring to scanning something like the watch used by Omega, and with not opening it, being able to determine pivot sizes for example. In reality, you don't even need that, because these are all known anyway. I can't speak for this car example but going back to the point of all this I'm sure, Omega didn't "need" to scan an existing watch to "recreate" the new 321. All these parts were already made up until recently.
All the bridge shapes, tooth forms, pivot sizes, tolerances etc. were all already known and well documented. The scan of the watch was maybe used to generate overall shapes of parts (even that is a stretch IMO), but the details likely came from existing drawings or direct measurements of new parts they have on hand.
In the big picture, it simply wasn't relevant from an engineering perspective. From a marketing perspective, people clearly can't get enough.
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SouthernScot
·Did the Blowers actually win races? I was under the impression that they didn’t win, and where used as Jack rabbits to force other mfg’s to try and catch them and they would all break down allowing the non blower Bentlys to win.
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eugeneandresson
·Okay, but I'm referring to scanning something like the watch used by Omega, and with not opening it, being able to determine pivot sizes for example.
Its an interesting topic, and I thought I would reach out to some good friends who work hands on with this technology in theory and practice (read: did Phd's in the field of electromagetics and currently programming MRI's for derived research). The answer I get depends on what one scans, so ignoring clinical, scanning metal things (like engine blocks and movements etc) the answer is 'the sky is the limit' with respect to resolution and accuracy. i.e. 1micrometer and finer.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerIts an interesting topic, and I thought I would reach out to some good friends who work hands on with this technology in theory and practice (read: did Phd's in the field of electromagetics and currently programming MRI's for derived research). The answer I get depends on what one scans, so ignoring clinical, scanning metal things (like engine blocks and movements etc) the answer is 'the sky is the limit' with respect to resolution and accuracy. i.e. 1micrometer and finer.
Well, I appreciate you adding to the collective understanding of it here, so thanks.
Having said that, the original 321 movement was designed without the aid of scanners, and with very much analogue measuring equipment. So if there is a benefit to this technology for a watch, the benefit isn't accuracy of the drawings, or of the final parts - it's a productivity gain for the engineering department.
So I question why is it specifically talked about in the marketing materials, and where does this sort of talk about time saving engineering methods start and end? For example, in addition to the scanning they did, why didn't they specify that the design work was done in 3D CAD, rather than drawn by hand on drafting boards (where my engineering career started out)?
Why does the customer need to know this information, and what value does it add?
I struggle to come up with anything other than value in marketing, because it sounds "cool"...
Cheers, Al
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MRC
·So I question why is it specifically talked about in the marketing materials, and where does this sort of talk about time saving engineering methods start and end? For example, in addition to the scanning they did, why didn't they specify that the design work was done in 3D CAD, rather than drawn by hand on drafting boards (where my engineering career started out)?
Why does the customer need to know this information, and what value does it add?
I struggle to come up with anything other than value in marketing, because it sounds "cool"..
I too started on a drawing board but in early 1970s got into CAD program development. In the 1970s and well into the '80s the costs of computer, graphics terminal, pen-plotter and programs were several tens of the cost of employing just one draughtsman. In a very small number of cases the CAD system could pay for itself but for most of our customers the value was in showing to their customers how progressive they were. Marketing in other words.
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MRC
·Case being Rolex steel is that good a steel the magic 904L steel.
Well here is some 904L kitchen sink parts 😲
Pretty fancy kitchen! More likely 304 or 316, being the most common stainless alloys for food or chemicals production. Notice that they have bevels to create a Vee for welding to the next component. It's a big and very hot kitchen if its plumbing has to be welded together. I mentioned drawing boards previously, I had a drawer full of manufacturers catalogues of this stuff in those days -- and in my next job had to type all the dimensions, thickness, pressure rating etc into our development computer. On-line catalogues were more than 20 years in the future 😡
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eugeneandresson
·Well, I appreciate you adding to the collective understanding of it here, so thanks.
Having said that, the original 321 movement was designed without the aid of scanners, and with very much analogue measuring equipment. So if there is a benefit to this technology for a watch, the benefit isn't accuracy of the drawings, or of the final parts - it's a productivity gain for the engineering department.
So I question why is it specifically talked about in the marketing materials, and where does this sort of talk about time saving engineering methods start and end? For example, in addition to the scanning they did, why didn't they specify that the design work was done in 3D CAD, rather than drawn by hand on drafting boards (where my engineering career started out)?
Why does the customer need to know this information, and what value does it add?
I struggle to come up with anything other than value in marketing, because it sounds "cool"...
Cheers, Al
Using CT to reverse engineer mechanical functional models is apparently a well accepted and highly accurate modern technique (and certainly has many benefits). Why is it so wrong for a business that has the know-how let it be known? To draw a parallel : you are a business, and you advertise all your best practices and techniques here (and likely elsewhere) : you market yourself and all the cool and correct things you do (and certainly that draws customers). So, why the grudge with Bently (or in your case, Omega)? (thats a rhetorical question good Sir, please dont answer 😉 ).
I too started on a drawing board but in early 1970s got into CAD program development. In the 1970s and well into the '80s the costs of computer, graphics terminal, pen-plotter and programs were several tens of the cost of employing just one draughtsman. In a very small number of cases the CAD system could pay for itself but for most of our customers the value was in showing to their customers how progressive they were. Marketing in other words.
My father also started on the drawing board round that time, but I only ever remember him using CAD (so, we are talking from the mid-to-late 80s on) which he still does to this day, although he has just reached retirement age. He did not work for a billion dollar marketing-driven luxury company at all...it was 'State owned' and provided an essential service.
