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Kmmdad57
·Why did Omega go from a more luxurious movement 321 with a colomn wheel to a cam operated system on the 861? Both the Zenith and Rolex used the column wheel technology, why won't Omega?
Cam vs column wheel.
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sheepdoll
·In my experience column wheels tend to break at the roots of the teeth. Especially on the Val-23/72/88.
There is also a good take on the differences by our own @Archer in the watchmaking section. https://omegaforums.net/threads/321-v-861-and-the-much-talked-about-cost-savings.149285/ Well worth the read.
Mostly though IMHO it comes down to marketing. And what people will believe. Anything you tell me three times is true.
There is also a good take on the differences by our own @Archer in the watchmaking section. https://omegaforums.net/threads/321-v-861-and-the-much-talked-about-cost-savings.149285/ Well worth the read.
Mostly though IMHO it comes down to marketing. And what people will believe. Anything you tell me three times is true.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFWhy did Omega go from a more luxurious movement 321 with a colomn wheel to a cam operated system on the 861? Both the Zenith and Rolex used the column wheel technology, why won't Omega?
The cam and lever system on the 861 tends to have fewer issues, one of those issues being that the teeth of the column wheel itself don’t snap off like they did on the 321. It has a heavier press than the 321 and the force required is less even between start/stop and reset but it’s more simple and reliable which they needed in the late 60s.
Omega did bring back the column wheel on the Calibre 33X3 series, the Cal 9000 series, the Cal 3330 and the 321, but the 3861 persists with cam and lever.
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Evitzee
·The watch industry thrives on tradition, that's why we buy watches that contain technology that is essentially obsolete. No one needs a mechanical watch today with instant precise time available on every phone which almost everyone carries in their waking hours. The traditional way a chronograph was controlled was via a column wheel, that's what collectors have seen and that is what they want in a contemporary chronograph, it doesn't matter if a different system is available or maybe even works better. You aren't going to see Patek Philippe, Lange or other top brand using a cam actuated chronograph. Audemars Piguet ran for years using a modular chronograph in their Offshore line and got a lot of stick for doing that, now they use their own integrated chronograph with a column wheel. Omega got rid of the column wheel fifty years ago for cost and efficiency purposes, but in other calibers they have introduced since then most have column wheels. That's what people want, it's tradition. The 861/1861/3861 movements are fine, work well, and do their job, but they are looked at as second class citizens in the chronograph hierarchy. Omega went against tradition way back then, but I wonder if they would do the same thing today.
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Kmmdad57
·In my experience column wheels tend to break at the roots of the teeth. Especially on the Val-23/72/88.
There is also a good take on the differences by our own @Archer in the watchmaking section. https://omegaforums.net/threads/321-v-861-and-the-much-talked-about-cost-savings.149285/ Well worth the read.
Mostly though IMHO it comes down to marketing. And what people will believe. Anything you tell me three times is true.
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Kmmdad57
·I guess the question is why is it more luxurious?
The cam and lever system on the 861 tends to have fewer issues, one of those issues being that the teeth of the column wheel itself don’t snap off like they did on the 321. It has a heavier press than the 321 and the force required is less even between start/stop and reset but it’s more simple and reliable which they needed in the late 60s.
Omega did bring back the column wheel on the Calibre 33X3 series, the Cal 9000 series, the Cal 3330 and the 321, but the 3861 persists with cam and lever.
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Meme-Dweller
·I guess with the column wheel you don't get jumping action of the second hand and easier pushers.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI guess with the column wheel you don't get jumping action of the second hand and easier pushers.
No...not at all.
pretty sure that has to do more with a vertical clutch vs gear teeth smashing into each other
This is correct.
People often confuse the column/cam debate, with the horizontal/vertical coupling issues.
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M'Bob
·The 861/1861/3861 movements are fine, work well, and do their job, but they are looked at as second class citizens in the chronograph hierarchy
By whom?
You have done a nice job over the years educating the Forum about how the column wheel chronograph is not superior, and perhaps mechanically even less sound, than the 861 variants.
But: those that don’t know this, and just peripherally dip their feet into the wristwatch hobby, have almost assuredly picked up over the years (from friends, advertising, NASA history) that the cal. 321 has a higher esteem than the 861. Now, to be clear, I’m not saying it is, but I’m puzzled how you could argue that the perception of superiority doesn’t exit.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFBy whom?
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Kmmdad57
·It is funny, because everywhere I read, they say the 3861 is far superior in every way to the 321
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ErichPryde
··Seamasters ForeverIt is funny, because everywhere I read, they say the 3861 is far superior in every way to the 321
In terms of accuracy and reliability, that's true. But if you are measuring which one is superior from a subjective sense, some people think that the 321 is superior simply because it was the first Omega movement that went to space and also the first that went in to space. It was also, as far as I'm aware, the only Omega movement that was on the moon's surface. There seems to be a ton of debate about this, so if someone has different information I would appreciate correction.
The 861 saw plenty of action in space and is just as venerable, but the shuttle program always had a lot less romance to it then did Mercury, Gemini and Apollo (especially).
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Gruesome
·Why did Omega go from a more luxurious movement 321 with a colomn wheel to a cam operated system on the 861? Both the Zenith and Rolex used the column wheel technology, why won't Omega?
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFIn terms of accuracy and reliability, that's true. But if you are measuring which one is superior from a subjective sense, some people think that the 321 is superior simply because it was the first Omega movement that went to space and also the first that went in to space. It was also, as far as I'm aware, the only Omega movement that was on the moon's surface. There seems to be a ton of debate about this, so if someone has different information I would appreciate correction.
The 861 saw plenty of action in space and is just as venerable, but the shuttle program always had a lot less romance to it then did Mercury, Gemini and Apollo (especially).
It did a lot but it’s hard to love it, while Apollo, Gemini and Mercury were in a more experimental era yet somehow didn’t kill anyone in space (though on earth many died).
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ErichPryde
··Seamasters ForeverIt’s interesting how you mentions shuttle. When I think of it, I think Challenger, Columbia, and how no matter how expensive a machine is, rubber o-rings can still bring it down.
It did a lot but it’s hard to love it, while Apollo, Gemini and Mercury were in a more experimental era yet somehow didn’t kill anyone in space (though on earth many died).
Yes, exactly. The era of the shuttle is an era of science, not discovery. Not to mention the space race was over essentially over. The era of the shuttle is oft seen as an era of stagnation, and the actions of the US Government very much helped cement that perception.
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