All about Connie- prices, orginality.....

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Hi Duffy7.

It is the market that sets prices, and Rail Track Dial is not bought at auction for high sums. I had a beautiful rose gold/steel and sold it for the equivalent of about $900 at auction

You’re comparing a nice solid gold example with a heavily patinated gold-capped one here. I disagree that railtrack dials aren’t sought-after per se:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-Omega-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

(Yes, it’s on a 7077/4, but that’s still >2k€ for the watch head).
 
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You’re comparing a nice solid gold example with a heavily patinated gold-capped one here. I disagree that railtrack dials aren’t sought-after per se:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-Omega-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

(Yes, it’s on a 7077/4, but that’s still >2k€ for the watch head).


That's why I come here, to consult, it's good that you disagree. Just don't use examples of how much someone wants for a watch, more like how much it went for. I know the Rail Track dial was rare, but it doesn't hold its price from what I observe.
 
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Just don't use examples of how much someone wants for a watch, more like how much it went for. I know the Rail Track dial was rare, but it doesn't hold its price from what I observe.

Completely with you on this, hence my link - the watch actually sold for that price, to a member of this forum by the way. 😀
 
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The reason it is very hard to put a price on any specific Constellation of a specific reference is that there are so many variables to contend with before we even start to consider condition, originality, provenance and accessories.

If we only take into account as a basis for valuation per reference the differing head only characteristics then we already have:

Case material: steel, gold top, solid 14kt/18kt gold, yellow gold, rose gold.

Dial style: dome, rail track, pie pan, pie pan Deluxe, waffle, hobnail, black.

These are not Speedmasters where they all look identical and it's simply a case of looking up the reference, checking for original parts and grading condition! 😉

There are steel Constellations around with rare dial variations that will command substantially more than the same reference in solid gold with a common dial.

It is also still just about possible to score a fantastic Constellation at auction once in a while for a very low price as has been demonstrated by, amongst others, @duffy7 and his very nice rail track. That boat has pretty much sailed for Speedmasters for instance, so it is generally easier to put a tighter price range on one of those.
Edited:
 
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The reason it is very hard to put a price on any specific Constellation of a specific reference is that there are so many variables to contend with before we even start to consider condition, originality, provenance and accessories.

If we only consider as a basis for valuation per reference the differing head only characteristics then we already have:

Case material: steel, gold top, solid 14kt/18kt gold, yellow gold, rose gold.

Dial style: dome, rail track, pie pan, pie pan Deluxe, waffle, hobnail, black.

These are not Speedmasters where they all look identical and it's simply a case of looking up the reference, checking for original parts and grading condition! 😉


Thanks. Very reasonable voice in the discussion, more of them!
 
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There are some lovely watches and some very odd observations being made in this thread and an awful lot of comparing apples with pears.

The gold railtrack, presuming it was 18k and all correct, was a phenomenal price at less than €2k, even with a slightly softened case I would expect this to bring €3k minimum.

In the same reference and condition watch, a good and correct, railtrack dial will trump a pie-pan any and every day for collectibility, purely on scarcity alone.

I don't think a 14900 or 14902 carries any premium over a similar dialled and condition 167 or 168, unless someone is looking for a birth year watch.
Black dials are of course are a completely different discussion.
 
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To me 14900 and 14902 have a premium due to the fact that this is the first dog leg reference produced for only two years. Officially the 167.005, 168.008 era began in 1962 and it's hard to even find a source for when it ended.
 
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To me 14900 and 14902 have a premium due to the fact that this is the first dog leg reference produced for only two years. Officially the 167.005, 168.008 era began in 1962 and it's hard to even find a source for when it ended.

I don't doubt that the earlier dogleg reference have a premium to you @skand and that's fine, but I don't believe that is necessarily borne out in the market, as you (unequivocally) suggested earlier.
Dials do change in the late-ish 60s to have painted indices instead of onyx and this undoubtedly does affect the value of a watch, amongst collectors at least.
You could say that the 'missing text' dials, often seen on a 14900 or 14902 are a poorer version of the 'full text' dial - or should that be a better and more collectible version?
Finding a 167 or 168 dogleg (or how about a 168.004) with a missing text dial is a real anomaly - but it doesn't add or detract from the value, just adds more interest.

Limited numbers aren't really a thing amongst Connie collectors, (as few of them are really limited) its much more about a particular style and of course condition.
 
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I don't doubt that the earlier dogleg reference have a premium to you @skand and that's fine, but I don't believe that is necessarily borne out in the market, as you (unequivocally) suggested earlier.
Dials do change in the late-ish 60s to have painted indices instead of onyx and this undoubtedly does affect the value of a watch, amongst collectors at least.
You could say that the 'missing text' dials, often seen on a 14900 or 14902 are a poorer version of the 'full text' dial - or should that be a better and more collectible version?
Finding a 167 or 168 dogleg (or how about a 168.004) with a missing text dial is a real anomaly - but it doesn't add or detract from the value, just adds more interest.

Limited numbers aren't really a thing amongst Connie collectors, (as few of them are really limited) its much more about a particular style and of course condition.


If a reference was produced for a shorter time, there is less of it, and if there is less of it, it is more valued by collectors. These are the basics of collecting that you are trying to negate by writing that they don't apply to ref 14900, 14902 and the successors 167.005, 168.005. Given a choice between a comparable watch in, for example, ref 14900 and 167.005 I will always opt for the 14900, even if it is a little more expensive.
 
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If a reference was produced for a shorter time, there is less of it, and if there is less of it, it is more valued by collectors. These are the basics of collecting that you are trying to negate by writing that they don't apply to ref 14900, 14902 and the successors 167.005, 168.005..

I don't wish to get into a pissing match with you but this simply isn't true.
How many threads are there on OF where the responses is "just because it's rare doesn't make it valuable" ?
It's true that some collectors, for some watches, value rarity - but that isn't always the case and apart from the increasingly less-available early references, it doesn't happen in Constellation collecting.

There are millions of Connies out there, none of them are truly rare.
Because of that, whilst some watches are less common it is generally the style which people collect - and condition drives the premium.
Having a 14900 and a 167.005 in a collection might complete a set for some people but there is no premium in the market for the earlier reference that I've seen.
 
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Also, regarding rarity: IIRC there were multiple times the amount of cal 561 Connies than 551, yet the difference in value between 167.005 and 168.005 is comparably marginal - 10% maybe?

It’s hard to define “value”. Do we define that as the price a watch would achieve on eBay by a private seller with average pictures? The Omega Enthusiast achieves vastly different “values” for his offers than the person who inherited a watch, knows nothing about them and puts in on eBay with an account with only a handful of feedback and 3 lazy iPhone pictures.

One could argue that the value equals the amount she/he manages to achieve for it. The difficulty of assessing it largely depends on accessibility and desirability. 168.005s, for example, in the common layout of white sunburst piepan dial, can be found relatively easily - a good example will demand a premium, but to me, the premium is relatively small as there are many around. Take a hobnail dial Constellation as a comparison. They’re scarce enough that they might be called rare, so if two collectors both want an example, chances are the awareness that they don’t come up for sale often mean that both are ready to go significantly beyond what they’d usually have considered a good price for one.

In the end, value is something personal to me. To come back to your own examples, the YG 167.005 and the SS 168.005 I’d value lower than you, because, while of course only a very small percentage of them are preserved in this condition, they are pretty common refs and can be found with time and expertise. Your honeycomb 2648 is a different story: If I wanted one, I might be tempted to go 1k or so higher than I’d normally be prepared for this ref, as I’d ask myself: When’s the next time I might find one in the open market? Might be years. Hope this makes sense; I’d like to emphasize that I’m writing none of this to discredit your pieces in any way, just to elaborate how for me, personally, “value” is constructed.
 
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I do collect 14902 and 14900 with dome dials that Omega tried to apply a special clear and shiny coat over some of them then stopped.
Most of these shiny coat dials turn bad over the years but some still look good with 3D effect.
I like them and collect them. (all other 14900 and 02 are the same as later 005)
 
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If a reference was produced for a shorter time, there is less of it, and if there is less of it, it is more valued by collectors.

Unfortunately that's not always a case, ref. 2887 is very uncommon and I have found around 30 pieces online so far but that doesn't command a premium. Don't know why but thats how it is.
 
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Also, regarding rarity: IIRC there were multiple times the amount of cal 561 Connies than 551, yet the difference in value between 167.005 and 168.005 is comparably marginal - 10% maybe?

It’s hard to define “value”. Do we define that as the price a watch would achieve on eBay by a private seller with average pictures? The Omega Enthusiast achieves vastly different “values” for his offers than the person who inherited a watch, knows nothing about them and puts in on eBay with an account with only a handful of feedback and 3 lazy iPhone pictures.

One could argue that the value equals the amount she/he manages to achieve for it. The difficulty of assessing it largely depends on accessibility and desirability. 168.005s, for example, in the common layout of white sunburst piepan dial, can be found relatively easily - a good example will demand a premium, but to me, the premium is relatively small as there are many around. Take a hobnail dial Constellation as a comparison. They’re scarce enough that they might be called rare, so if two collectors both want an example, chances are the awareness that they don’t come up for sale often mean that both are ready to go significantly beyond what they’d usually have considered a good price for one.

In the end, value is something personal to me. To come back to your own examples, the YG 167.005 and the SS 168.005 I’d value lower than you, because, while of course only a very small percentage of them are preserved in this condition, they are pretty common refs and can be found with time and expertise. Your honeycomb 2648 is a different story: If I wanted one, I might be tempted to go 1k or so higher than I’d normally be prepared for this ref, as I’d ask myself: When’s the next time I might find one in the open market? Might be years. Hope this makes sense; I’d like to emphasize that I’m writing none of this to discredit your pieces in any way, just to elaborate how for me, personally, “value” is constructed.


After all, you wrote the same thing I did, so there is no question of any discredit. I just needlessly got caught up in comparing the 14393 Raily Track dial with the 167.005, since they are completely different watches. It was my mistake
 
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If a reference was produced for a shorter time, there is less of it, and if there is less of it, it is more valued by collectors. These are the basics of collecting that you are trying to negate by writing that they don't apply to ref 14900, 14902 and the successors 167.005, 168.005. Given a choice between a comparable watch in, for example, ref 14900 and 167.005 I will always opt for the 14900, even if it is a little more expensive.
With respect, this is nonsense and not born out by the facts. Rare or early doesn't always equal more valuable.
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@skand, it is poor form to invite discussion and then shut down others opinions with your own observations. Especially since they seem to be your own conviction and not based on factual research and like-to-like comparisons. It is my experience that the Constellation collecting world places little to no value in production number as a separate marker of perceived value.

As @cristos71 points out there simply are too many variables to come up with a clear definition of value and that is only when we are discussing the item and leave out other factors such as time scope for selling (1), marketplace/Target audience (2) and vendor (3). All these are hugely variable; a gold-capped Constellation like the one in the thread that caused you to start this thread is likely to have cost the seller around the $3.5K mark from Omega Enthusiast (3), sold on Instagram, exposed to his followers there and suggested to others looking for one (2) and sold at a fixed price (1), while the current seller might struggle to achieve $1.2K in his current sales advert on some sales page (2) as he is an unknown entity (3) - and it will take him a looooong while (1). On an auction site (2) it will sell swiftly, but is likely to achieve a much lower value than the seller envisioned (1).

My point is that if you perceive "value" as the price that a certain good will be considered as reasonable enough for purchase by at least one prospective customer that the seller will agree to, there is no clear answer. I guarantee you that a Constellation like the one you reacted to will be valued lower by an uninformed buyer than a seasoned collector, while a sharp one like yours will carry a premium that a new collector will struggle to find sensible, but a collector would be willing to pay.
 
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Unfortunately that's not always a case, ref. 2887 is very uncommon and I have found around 30 pieces online so far but that doesn't command a premium. Don't know why but thats how it is.


In collecting it is impossible to define why something less rare is more expensive than something more rare. We are the collectors, and what is valuable to me for some reason or another may not be to you. One thing is undeniable, the Connie line is a collector's item.
 
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In collecting it is impossible to define why something less rare is more expensive than something more rare. We are the collectors, and what is valuable to me for some reason or another may not be to you. One thing is undeniable, the Connie line is a collector's item.

You must consider what drives prices (specific cosmetic characteristics rather than technical specifications, for instance) and that for some items it is NOT who we would classify as collectors who are the price drivers; the Seamaster DeVille is one such example where a 1960s item is more sought after by new or inexperienced collectors than "true" collectors which is why that a relatively boring (there, I said it) reference is fairly expensive if in decent condition.
 
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The purpose of starting this thread was not strictly to price the individual pieces. Where else but in the Omega forum can I get the point of view of other collectors. I don't see why I shouldn't have an opinion