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Aero Compax Ref 22289 / SN 1072......Original Dial Debate! Opinions Needed

Larry S
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Well done @vujen. So radiation leads us back to the 40s. We have two identical dials. Minority dial maker? Custom dial? I own a watch with a dial that was bespoke for a client. The watchmaker had an extra grand feu dial due to the manufacturing process and built one for for me. Lots of possibilities.
 
Larry S
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Syrte Syrte
Yes, this one too - and others where the gospels were shown to include a few remarkable omissions.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/an-...hield-on-dial-of-early-ug-three-hander.86515/

The UG subforums has gone through reformation but that also carries a few witch burnings. 🙄
Interesting and disturbing analogy but yes, we’ve had a few. I’d like to believe this is still one of the more civil forums out there. @oinkitt you have been cool with this. Thank you.
 
wouter van wijk
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@vujen don't get me started. Its a frikking jungle! Some things to add.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Nowadays there are enough collectors who are hunting to add a fresh vintage piece to their collection. They want to be satisfied in their need. They need to get a fix for their hoarding addiction. Back in the old days dealers could buy baskets of stock in the US filled with Big Crown Subs, Speedies and Daytonas. Nowadays the reality is that there are several collectors with 20 pieces in their collection of which the majority are NOT PERFECT. As long as everybody is parroting/demanding CCC, it will be profitable to supply extra unpolished, fresh-to market, safe queen, mixed-up, full-set, (fairy tail) watches. Demand-supply-demand. Collector asks dealer will supply. And yes there are good dealers and there are bad dealers as discussed in several threads on OF. In all honesty I have also laser welded a case of a 5513. And there is nothing wrong with its when its is all messed up by an idiot who got drunk while handling the polishing the wheel. THE RESULT WILL BE STATED BY THE SELLER!! >>me😉

When you go to car shows you see that 40% of the cars are completely restored. Some even better than new condition. I do also prefer non molested cars. Car enthusiast have another kind of collecting paradigma I guess. on then other hand its more logical to restore a care that has not have been in the garage all of its live.

In this case the UG is most likely redone. But it's redone like decades ago and the watch has most likely a one owner story (and oh boy won't we all love those stories). So if you like nice stories and a cool watch, this is a great piece. If you are focussed on the utmost best condition, this isn't the watch for you.
 
Larry S
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wouter van wijk wouter van wijk
@vujen don't get me started. Its a frikking jungle! Some things to add.

In this case the UG is most likely redone. But it's redone like decades ago and the watch has most likely a one owner story (and oh boy won't we all love those stories). So if you like nice stories and a cool watch, this is a great piece. If you are focussed on the utmost best condition, this isn't the watch for you.
@wouter van wijk ...how could we have two identical redone dials? That’s what’s keeping me from redial. Good perspective BTW. Reminds me of a recent very very heated 1675 from a prominent dealer kerfuffle/ witch burning.
Edited:
 
Jantar
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wouter van wijk wouter van wijk
@vujen
When you go to car shows you see that 40% of the cars are completely restored. Some even better than new condition. I do also prefer non molested cars. Car enthusiast have another kind of collecting paradigma I guess. on then other hand its more logical to restore a care that has not have been in the garage all of its live.

The problem with a lot of restorations I see is use of non-original parts. Parts availability makes this a necessity and at times they look and act the part but are almost always a lesser quality than the original. Often they come from China or Taiwan. My personal area of expertise is old English cars, specifically MG and Triumph and I prefer a good unmolested original any day over one that looks showroom fresh but is filled with low quality replacement parts.

Thankfully, at least in the watches I collect, most collectors seem to call out and admonish these reproduction parts when discovered.
 
JwRosenthal
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Jantar Jantar
The problem with a lot of restorations I see is use of non-original parts. Parts availability makes this a necessity and at times they look and act the part but are almost always a lesser quality than the original. Often they come from China or Taiwan. My personal area of expertise is old English cars, specifically MG and Triumph and I prefer a good unmolested original any day over one that looks showroom fresh but is filled with low quality replacement parts.

Thankfully, at least in the watches I collect, most collectors seem to call out and admonish these reproduction parts when discovered.
I agree with the replacement aftermarket parts thing on cars- but to speak to the point of changing taste in collecting, a “survivor” now in the car world was a beater then. You would never had seen a vintage car with faded paint and a ratty interior at Monterey 30 years ago.
 
oinkitt
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Larry S Larry S
@wouter van wijk ...how could we have two identical redone dials? That’s what’s keeping me from redial. Good perspective BTW. Reminds me of a recent very very heated 1675 from a prominent dealer kerfuffle/ witch burning.

Nothing like a good witch burning...… its been popular since 1692.

Unfortunately, like most witches, I had to get fried to prove I wasn't one.

I hope all parties have learnt to be a little more careful in future!!!!!!!
 
ClipperGMT
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oinkitt oinkitt
Radex says 2,38

just curious what was the orientation of the watch when you tested? the sensor on the radex is on the left and testing directly over the dial vs beside or through the caseback will yield very different results...

48193037431_8c52400b20_o.jpg

48193038941_bfb1229f29_o.jpg
 
oinkitt
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ClipperGMT ClipperGMT
just curious what was the orientation of the watch when you tested? the sensor on the radex is on the left and testing directly over the dial vs beside or through the caseback will yield very different results...

I didn't realise the sensor was in the side. I usually just sit the unit on top of the watch as per the picture below. I am clearly getting incorrect low readings.

I must say, I wondered why the reading on the watch below was so low.

I wont have the ability to test the Universal again for a while as I gave the watch to my friends daughter for her birthday.

R1.jpg




Edited:
 
R1.jpg
Syrte
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oinkitt oinkitt
I wont have the ability to test the Universal again for a while as I gave the watch to my friends daughter for her birthday.
She's lucky, I wouldn't mind getting a watch like this for my birthday 👍
 
oinkitt
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Syrte Syrte
She's lucky, I wouldn't mind getting a watch like this for my birthday 👍

Well, my sale was destroyed by the witch hunt and I know she likes the watch.

Besides, I have another Aero with a Spillman case.

It makes up for the egg I cracked on her head when she was 14, and painting her knee silver when she was 11....!!!
 
Diabolik
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Call me a doubting Thomas. However, testing must follow certain standards. As mentioned, placing watch at differing distances and orientation will produce different results ... It is impossible to use results as the ultimate proof that it is genuine. Although, and I must be frank, the dial is good and unexpectedly clean for it to be anything other than original. However, there are issues that cannot be brushed off as it just does not fit with UG quality of the time. I hold back any judgement at this time and await further info ...
Edited:
 
vujen
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Diabolik Diabolik
Call me a doubting Thomas. However, testing must follow certain standards. As mentioned, placing watch at differing distances and orientation will produce different resutke ... It is impossible to use results as the ultimate proof of genuinity. Although, and I must be frank, the dial is good and unexpectibly clean for it to be anything other than original, the are issues that cannot be brushed off as it just does not fit with UG quality of the time. I hold back any judgement at this time and await further info ...

I don't agree.
These tests are not "quantitative" but "qualitative" (I don't know if these are proper english words). With that test we now know that there's radium on the dial - or hands - or both.
A reprinted dial should not have it.
It's not important the exact measurement because it depends on a lot of factors, and we are not in a lab.
Test is: Is there radium? Y/N
 
Larry S
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Quantitative ... we had a radiation reading. Qualitative ....Based on what we know, fonts and print quality don’t quite fit the period reflected in the s/n.
 
Diabolik
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That is exactly it. I would say that we have only conducted a qualitative analysis.

The reading is important in determining if the substance is radium or tritium as Tritium half life is much shorter than radium (tritium should give a lower reading). However, the question is compared to what ? How do we determine if what we are seeing is a value corresponding to Tritium or Radium ?

I guess that the only way to determine that would be to compare readings to a known radium dial tested in similar conditions (distance, position of probe etc ..). Numbers tell us that there is radiation but not what is emitting radiation.
Edited:
 
Larry S
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The reading helps as @vujen says, peg the watch in a time period and suggests that it is not a redial. The fact that there are at least two dials also seems to challenge redial as a possibility. What is left? Small run of bespoke dials for folks who wanted more lume? A dial option that was made in small quantities by a different sub contractor? A service dial? We all know these watches were not made in large numbers, got used hard and that clean dials are pretty rare. As an added bonus, I now better understand how to use my Radex! 😗
 
vujen
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Occam's razor: simply normal UG dials with different fonts? 😀 I know it's too simple but at this point maybe the simpler the better 😀
 
ClipperGMT
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Mark020 Mark020
@ClipperGMT what a beautiful Fortis!!!

thanks, i'm in love with the combination of the white/eggshell dial which changes with the light, custard radium and blued hands. venus 178 from the 50s (sorry for the hijack)
48547093407_981cefd2aa_h.jpg 49036563552_b4e80f792d_o.jpg
 
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