Adventure with Colonel Pogue - Seiko 6139-6002

JimInOz · Apr 11, 2016

I picked up this iconic example a while ago and have just gotten around to doing something with it.

First look (Click on pics for higher resolution view).

So after cleaning around the bezel and caseback, a strip down and movement removed.

Condition report:
Case: Heavily marked and covered in welding spatter but original finish just visible.
Crystal: Looks like the surface of the moon, heavy weld spatter.
Bezel: Not too bad, will be cleaned and retained.
Crown/Pushers: In good condition but sticking badly.
Bracelet: Original STL Stelux bracelet, not too stretched, covered in weld spatter, gunk and scratches.
Dial: Reasonable condition original with faded inner bezel.
Movement: Good to very good condition, no corrosion and appears untouched.

Concentrating on the case for the first part, here's what I have to start with. Starting at the crown side and going clockwise.

So now it's a test of my skills to see if I can bring the case back to acceptable condition without making it even worse.

More to follow.

RawArcher · Apr 11, 2016

Thanks for posting Jim. I always enjoy hearing about (and seeing) your watchmaking projects!

West Slope · Apr 11, 2016

I do like that watch and understand the history but am curious about this particular one, and without trying to sound rude, am curious if you are doing the restoration for fun/the challenge or if it has some sort of personal attachment as a nice clean version seems to be readily available for under $500 these days so not really worth the effort. I have always been a believer in the idea you start with the best example you can find when doing a restoration and one covered in welding splatter seems like a poor candidate.

That being said I will be curious to see how it turns out.

JimInOz · Apr 11, 2016

The problem is finding an original, many of the nice looking ones around now have replacement dials/hands/bracelets etc.
Even though this has had a hard life it still has potential and part of finishing up with a decent example is the journey itself.
Anyway, mustn't waste time, I'm off to the buffing wheel.
😉

ACTmike · Apr 12, 2016

Hi Jim,

Great post and look forward to seeing your work in progress.
Please post a close up of the dial when you move on with the project interested in its condition.
Cheers Michael

philh · Apr 12, 2016

JimInOz
The problem is finding an original, many of the nice looking ones around now have replacement dials/hands/bracelets etc.
Even though this has had a hard life it still has potential and part of finishing up with a decent example is the journey itself.
Anyway, mustn't waste time, I'm off to the buffing wheel.
😉

These watches are highly sought after and have a significant number of collectors who are passionate about them.The watch came with either a blue,silver or gold dial and they had other variations in case,dial and strap which prompt pages of detailed discussions on forums.
Unmolested and original watches are hard to find and a recent e bay auction saw a slightly tired gold pogue with rust on the subdial sell for ifor more than £1000
The collectors of these watches devote as much time and attention to provenance as say the collectors of the other moon watch
I love them and currently have 4 with a 5th on its way
I wish you well with the restoration and look forward to seeing progress reports particularly the case work

JimInOz · Apr 24, 2016

Finally got around to finishing the case cleanup. Minor re-finishing to remove above surface bumps and scabs, all pusher/crown tubes cleaned and internally polished, bezel left untouched, new crystal fitted.

Next step will be to service the movement, I hope to start that next week.

NNW64 · Apr 24, 2016

Looking forward to the next update [emoji16]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Egatdagi · Apr 24, 2016

That looks awesome. How much metal did you end up taking off to get there?

JimInOz · Apr 24, 2016

Egatdagi
That looks awesome. How much metal did you end up taking off to get there?

Very little, I only used 800 and 1200 grit paper on hardwood blocks for cleaning the surfaces (on a wood jig to maintain angles) and 2000 grit for the finishing the sides which were originally mirror finish. The intention isn't to produce a "NOS" case but one that was much cleaner than I started with.

In the end I want the watch to look "lightly worn".

blacksharpie · Apr 24, 2016

I have three of these and love them. Looking forward to seeing how yours turns out.

Bob H · Apr 25, 2016

Good to see how you "restore" the cases - I've wondered how various methods would work. If you are able - pics of the sanding setup and what buffing wheel you use would be appreciated as I'm on the lookout for a smaller buffer for watch cases.

Ray916MN · Apr 25, 2016

Unfortunately Seiko collectors are poor imitations of Speedmaster collectors. The 6139 that Colonel Pogue wore into space was reference 6139-6005 (export version as opposed to the Asia market 6139-6002). There were 3 different yellow dials produced for these watches with this case reference. Pogue's watch dial had "Water70mResist" printed along the 9 dial radius and the applied "Seiko" logo with the "Automatic" printed below the logo along the 12 dial radius. As best as can tell, this was the rarest of the 3 yellow dials produced for this reference, It had a French/English day wheel and will have been produced in 1971-2.

A picture of Pogue's actual watch shows what a correct dial looks like and also shows that his watch had an incorrect replacement subdial hand.

The vast majority of watches referred to as Pogues do not have the correct dial or are incorrect in some other way. Aftermarket or replacement parts are the least of the problems with most watches being passed off as Pogues. A quick search of eBay typically shows a couple of hundred watches referred to as "Pogues" with none of them having the correct dial and case reference. I've been watching eBay for 6139s for years and at present maybe 4 or 5 correct Pogues get listed on eBay every year. Most need significant work. As the Pogue is effectively the equivalent of a "flown" Omega Speedmaster 105.012 or 145.012, Omega collectors would consider passing off a watch without the correct caseback reference or dial the equivalent of passing off a 145.022 or 3570.50 as a flown Speedmaster. Ignorant at best, fraud at worst.

The value of a correct Pogue given collector interest and rarity in today's market is greater than $1K even with the lack of discrimination by Seiko collectors. If Seiko collectors were as discriminating as Speedmaster collectors the value would be even higher, since so many collectors would not incorrectly believe they owned Pogues or that Pogues could be easily bought for less than $1K.

watchknut · Apr 25, 2016

Ray916MN
Unfortunately Seiko collectors are poor imitations of Speedmaster collectors. The 6139 that Colonel Pogue wore into space was reference 6139-6005 (export version as opposed to the Asia market 6139-6002). There were 3 different yellow dials produced for these watches with this case reference. Pogue's watch dial had "Water70mResist" printed along the 9 dial radius and the applied "Seiko" logo with the "Automatic" printed below the logo along the 12 dial radius. As best as can tell, this was the rarest of the 3 yellow dials produced for this reference, It had a French/English day wheel and will have been produced in 1971-2.

A picture of Pogue's actual watch shows what a correct dial looks like and also shows that his watch had an incorrect replacement subdial hand.

The vast majority of watches referred to as Pogues do not have the correct dial or are incorrect in some other way. Aftermarket or replacement parts are the least of the problems with most watches being passed off as Pogues. A quick search of eBay typically shows a couple of hundred watches referred to as "Pogues" with none of them having the correct dial and case reference. I've been watching eBay for 6139s for years and at present maybe 4 or 5 correct Pogues get listed on eBay every year. Most need significant work. As the Pogue is effectively the equivalent of a "flown" Omega Speedmaster 105.012 or 145.012, Omega collectors would consider passing off a watch without the correct caseback reference or dial the equivalent of passing off a 145.022 or 3570.50 as a flown Speedmaster. Ignorant at best, fraud at worst.

The value of a correct Pogue given collector interest and rarity in today's market is greater than $1K even with the lack of discrimination by Seiko collectors. If Seiko collectors were as discriminating as Speedmaster collectors the value would be even higher, since so many collectors would not incorrectly believe they owned Pogues or that Pogues could be easily bought for less than $1K.

Awesome write up. I always love learning about variants and how the market views them.

JimInOz · Apr 25, 2016

Thanks for the explanation @Ray916MN. It adds a bit more to my understanding of this watch.

I'm under no illusions as to the "Pogueness" of this model and I didn't buy it specifically for what it should represent, I just saw a beaten up old watch with some hint of becoming wearable again and joining my collection of Seikos (I collect these as I have the capabilities to service them and I like the brand).

I think that "Pogue" has become a generic tag for all watches in this series, much like the large variety of Speedmasters are known as "Moon Watches", and as we all know, out of all the dozens of "Moon Watches" that Omega has released, there is only one specific model that can rightly bear that appellation, just as a true Pogue can only be the model identical to the one the Colonel wore.

Cheers

Jim

Ray916MN · Apr 25, 2016

JimInOz
Thanks for the explanation @Ray916MN. It adds a bit more to my understanding of this watch.

I'm under no illusions as to the "Pogueness" of this model and I didn't buy it specifically for what it should represent, I just saw a beaten up old watch with some hint of becoming wearable again and joining my collection of Seikos (I collect these as I have the capabilities to service them and I like the brand).

I think that "Pogue" has become a generic tag for all watches in this series, much like the large variety of Speedmasters are known as "Moon Watches", and as we all know, out of all the dozens of "Moon Watches" that Omega has released, there is only one specific model that can rightly bear that appellation, just as a true Pogue can only be the model identical to the one the Colonel wore.

Cheers

Jim

Absolutely true, although the genericizing of the 6139-600X as a "Pogue" undermines the significance and collectibility of these watches more significantly in my opinion than the genericizing of the Speedmaster..The 6139-600X was not only significant for being the first space flown automatic chronograph, but also for being the first automatic chronograph to reach regular production and to be sold at retail. It is effectively both Seiko's El Primero and Speedmaster with subtly different versions representing each achievement.

Seiko began producing two different versions of the 6139 in February of 1969 (6139-6000 and 61390-6010) and brought them to market in Asia in May of 1969. While Zenith was first to announce the development of an automatic chronograph, they were last to bring watches to market (10/69) and probably last to begin regular production. Heuer gave pre-production samples to the press at the April 1969 Basel watch fair and began retailing watches in June of 1969. As Seiko, unlike Zenith or Heuer never held a press conference to announce the 6139, the watches bearing February and March production serial numbers are the clearest proof of Seiko's achievement as they unarguably show Seiko was in full commercial production while Zenith and Heuer were still in pre-production.

February ad March 1969 production 6139 SpeedTimers shown with 1969 Zenith A385, and Caliber 11 representatives: Hamilton Pan Europ 703, Buren Super Slender (Cal. 11 base movement), Heuer 1163MH, Breilting Chronomat 1808

These 6139s were unique in having 21 jewel 6139a movements, 2 piece sweep hands, 5SportsWater70Proof printed along the 9 dial radius and Seiko SpeedTimer printed along the 12 dial radius. Bracelets on the 6139-6000 were unique and clasps were labelled Seiko 5Sports. The bracelet on the 6139-6000 shown is incorrect. In western markets February and March production SpeedTimers are rarer than correct Pogues.as they were only distributed in Asian markets.

JimInOz · Apr 30, 2016

Bob H
Good to see how you "restore" the cases - I've wondered how various methods would work. If you are able - pics of the sanding setup and what buffing wheel you use would be appreciated as I'm on the lookout for a smaller buffer for watch cases.

Had to set up a replication with an old case. My setup is nothing fancy, just hardwood blocks, MDF board and wet and dry paper.

No buffing or polishing machines were used in the production of this etc etc......

Note that this is an old watch case for demo, so not all angles etc will be what the 6139 was like.

Basic setup.

For doing the sides of the case I used an old caseback from a Seiko quartz as the bearing surface, it's flatter than the one on the 6139.
The paper is clamped to the board with the wide block and pulled down tight with the narrow block.

The case is then bought to the vertical surface and the sides wiped along the blocked paper. Start with 400 grit and work down to 2000 for a final finish. The mirror finish will be done with thin leather glued to a block using metal polish.

The facets were harder. I used the caseback again, adapted it with a blade sharpener and a machine screw and nuts. The lugs were marked with a sharpie, wiped on paper to see what got taken off, adjusted and checked until the marker was removed in one pass, then it was onto the grit doing about three passes and checking, repeating until a decent surface was revealed and then one or two passes with 800 grit.

The radial patterning on the top of the case was done by using the caseback again, mounted in the lathe and spun at low RPM using 600 grit paper on a hardwood block to remove as many dings as I could without removing too much.

Flingit1200s · Apr 30, 2016

@JimInOz thanks for sharing! Seeing these processes from guys like you and Archer are one of my favorite things on this forum. It takes extra time and effort to share this with us and I truly appreciate it! 👍

JimInOz · Apr 30, 2016

Comparing me to @Archer is a bit like comparing Homer Simpson to Wernher Von Braun (in rocket surgery terms).

While I've learnt a huge amount from Al, I'm light years away from his skills. I am however, intelligent enough to know my skill capabilities and technical limitations and pass on to the truly skilled that which I know I could graunch.

But if my tinkerer efforts interest you and don't encourage anybody to do similar things to their JLC Reversos et al then I'm happy to contribute.

Cheers

Jim

STANDY · Apr 30, 2016

Good old Aussie ingenuity there Jim

Sent from my IPad using Aussie invented WI-FI

Adventure with Colonel Pogue - Seiko 6139-6002

JimInOz

RawArcher

West Slope

JimInOz

ACTmike

philh

JimInOz

NNW64

Egatdagi

JimInOz

blacksharpie

Bob H

Ray916MN

watchknut

JimInOz

Ray916MN

JimInOz

Flingit1200s

JimInOz

STANDY

Similar threads

Opinions on this Seiko 6139-6002

Seiko Pogue 6139-6002 - 1975 -

Seiko 6139-6032 JDM Speedtimer "Coke" automatic chronograph 1972 REDUCED AGAIN $850

Seiko 6139-6017 Automatic Chronograph Blue Bruce Lee" 1970 Reduced $450

6139-6002: good deal or hard pass?

Vintage Seiko Package Deal 6139-6002 Chrono + Jumbo Seikomatic $750