Adjustment of screw(s) on cal.285

DManzaluni · May 9, 2020

Could anyone please explain the adjustment of the arrowed screw on this cal.285 please? And whether either of the two screws in the oval should be adjusted/touched while I am adjusting the arrowed screw please?

I just had this movement serviced, and fully adjusted but a few months later the watch then came back with the chrono part only working sporadically.

I figured with the repairer, - who is similarly locked up in the countryside,- that the problem is something to do with the arrowed screw and may or may not have something to do with one of the ovalled ones. When I adjust the arrowed one, the chrono part works more sporadically or less sporadically! It seems to work reasonably well with the arrowed one unscrewed almost all the way and looking like it is about to fall off! The chrono parts seem to engage but the second hand doesnt start to move at all. Other times, the seconds hand starts and stops/moves properly but hesitates and stops at the 53 second mark!!

So does anyone know what that screw does and how it is adjusted please?

Diabolik · May 10, 2020

1. Is responsible for driving the chrono runner at centre (in red). It should just engage and not exert any pressure on chrono runner as pressure will give rise to friction and drag which is likely to cause chrono to stop. All it does is engage third wheel to drive the chrono when you push the start pusher and disengage when you push it a second time.

2. The one in the circle is completely indipendent on the chrono runner and is a different adjustment. It determines two things:

a. engagement of minute recorder
b. reset

There is no hard and fast method for explaining how they should be set as wear and minor intolerances as well as other factors will determine how they should be adjusted for best performance.

If the chrono runner is always stopping at 57, it is likely that the eccentric screw 2, circled and highlighted will need adjusting so that cam is correctly engaging minute recorder.

DManzaluni · May 10, 2020

Thank you for that extraordinarily helpful and detailed technical response!! I think I had figured out the action of 1 but didnt know what it did or how to adjust it properly, where the adjustment seemed to leave it loose. It seems the proper adjustment DOES leave it just short of loose. Is that why the function comes out of adjustment comparatively easily?

Engaging third wheel to drive the chrono when I push the start pusher and disengaging when I push it a second time is exactly what the watch isn't doing at the moment. As I said, I was completely unsure where to leave the 1 screw. Now I see that adjustment of that screw so that the start/stop functions properly has no effect on stopping at the 57 second mark.

Diabolik · May 10, 2020

I think I may have confused matters, have a look at pic below. I have labelled the bits a, b and c.

1. Screw "A" should be tightened up. it is a limiter for the coupling clutch.
2. Screw "B" is an eccentric and adjusts the the gap between the driving wheel on coupling clutch and second runner "C"

It seems to me that screw A may not be correct as I cannot see how the coupling clutch wheel could ever make contact with the chrono runner.

ps: just noticed that in the first pic i posted, i labelled the eccentric (b) in the black circle as "2". Should have been "1" !

DManzaluni · May 11, 2020

I am making some progress:

I screwed screw A (black arrow) all the way tight as you said. It went four whole turns before I started to get scared! It is now reasonably tight.

The chrono then seemed to work, - the seconds hand did start and went to the 57 second mark before starting to hunt 2-3 seconds forward, then 2 seconds back! A few times. Then stopping. I can then press the return button and it returns. But the seconds hand wont now start again.

Screwing that screw does make the large wheel by it engage better with the wheel you have marked C. They both now turn, though not consistently. (they dont engage consistently) Either that or any turning of that screw will make the start button start the chrono: ONCE!

Do you think I am making progress?

Dan S · May 11, 2020

This is making me a little nervous. Do you perhaps have a different watch that you can wear until the stay-at-home orders are relaxed? 😉

DManzaluni · May 11, 2020

You think it might take me that long to get this right??

DManzaluni · May 12, 2020

Óh,ok then, I'll shelve it for the moment but can't wear my other watch for a different reason though I also can't figure out. It's a nice Borgel cased steel and rose gold 30s Movado. It works fine but has a curious dust cover over the cal.150 movement. With that cover in place, the crown won't push properly so that the time changes and the movement winds. When I take it out again, everything works fine again!

Is anything obvious about these symptoms or should I repost in a Movado forum?

Diabolik · May 13, 2020

DManzaluni
I am making some progress:

I screwed screw A (black arrow) all the way tight as you said. It went four whole turns before I started to get scared! It is now reasonably tight.

The chrono then seemed to work, - the seconds hand did start and went to the 57 second mark before starting to hunt 2-3 seconds forward, then 2 seconds back! A few times. Then stopping. I can then press the return button and it returns. But the seconds hand wont now start again.

Screwing that screw does make the large wheel by it engage better with the wheel you have marked C. They both now turn, though not consistently. (they dont engage consistently) Either that or any turning of that screw will make the start button start the chrono: ONCE!

Do you think I am making progress?

It seems you have multiple issues, each of which requires adjustment in a sequential way rather than doing a bit here and there. the sequence is as follows:

1. adjust a - chrono runner clutch
2. adjust b - minute recorder
3. adjust c - minute recorder spring tension

You have to get a right before going on to b and b right before going on to c. If there are any parts that are worn or out of tolerance (tolerances are very small), you could end up with a movement can will never work as it should. There are other adjustments. However, it would take too long to explain.

Carlton-Browne · May 13, 2020

The Borgel case is quite a common design and I see them quite often on Ebay - do they all have the dust cover?

Diabolik · May 13, 2020

DManzaluni
Óh,ok then, I'll shelve it for the moment but can't wear my other watch for a different reason though I also can't figure out. It's a nice Borgel cased steel and rose gold 30s Movado. It works fine but has a curious dust cover over the cal.150 movement. With that cover in place, the crown won't push properly so that the time changes and the movement winds. When I take it out again, everything works fine again!

Is anything obvious about these symptoms or should I repost in a Movado forum?

Something is not right. Sounds like there is pressure on stem ... Probably best you take it to a watchmaker !

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Curious, that. And, yes, you are right, FB sold that case to a number of manufacturers. I saw a friend wearing an Omega with that (all steel) case at a pen show a few months ago.

The movement is the quite common cal.150, which powers a very large number of Movado watches with a large number of case designs and sizes, - including rectangular ones. The movement fits into the case with a ring that goes all the way around the movement, a bit like a spacer. The dust cover fits onto the ring, - not onto the case directly. It isnt actually clear what the dust cover does, where the case has a screw back. I cant imagine that much dust could ever get through the screw threads, nor that there is much chance that anyone would ever screw the back off, especially with its nonagonal design necessitating an annoying special tool to get it off!

So the back is only really expected to be taken off on a watchmaker's work bench. So what exactly is that "dust" cover for if not to protect against dust?

What is slightly unusual is the case retaining screw, shown at the 11 o'clock position on the photo. It doesn't seem to DO anything?? It cant be turned because the ring is in the way.

I took the ring out (partially to see if there was any rut in it for the screw to tighten against) and replaced it in position to no particular effect: I think my experimentation with that repair will extend no further than taking the stem out to see if it is bent.

ChrisN · May 13, 2020

I wouldn't recommend going further with your 285 adjustments but, to help with clarification, I happen to have a build document for the 285 (which is unusual...) and it shows 3 eccentrics as noted below - all other screws should be tight:

I would not recommend you touch any of these as it would be easy to damage the wheels but, the instructions for each eccentric are:

This will get complicated quickly as you need to understand depthing (amount of tooth engagement) and permissible limits as well as which parts are being discussed. These are just standard adjustments for chronographs. Like I said, it's easy to damage things doing this. Can't you post the watch back to the watchmaker?

Cheers, Chris

Diabolik · May 13, 2020

You shouldn't need to touch ES-1 unless you have chrono start stop problems.

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Thank you for that Chris. If the screw which I have been adjusting to the left of the large wheel above the ES-1 needs just to be tight, it removes one variable and if the adjustment to JUST ONE eccentric is slight, this may not be too impossible.

But you are right, - the only realistic option is to use the post to send it back!

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Starting the chrono is the problem I have! But I am now wondering if I can adjust anything by tightening the lower screw which I have been concentrating on and then moving ES1 very slightly

ChrisN · May 13, 2020

DManzaluni
Thank you for that Chris. If the screw which I have been adjusting to the left of the large wheel above the ES-1 needs just to be tight, it removes one variable and if the adjustment to JUST ONE eccentric is slight, this may not be too impossible.

But you are right, - the only realistic option is to use the post to send it back!

That would be safest as you only turn these a little and the engagement of the teeth varies a lot - very easy to turn one a little and the teeth are bottoming and getting damaged. Parts for these are not easy to come by.

If you haven't turned ES-1 then you haven't affected the basic train so, you can still use the watch without the chronograph and it shouldn't be affected. ES-1 affects the basic running of the watch as well as the chronograph so, it is wise not to turn it. I think you're in UK so, if you get stuck, let me know.

Good luck, Chris

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Thanks for stopping me from pursuing that catastrophic course! The watch has just been serviced and fully timed electronically, so it is arguable that the last thing it needs is someone without the tiniest conception of what he is doing adjusting that ES-1 so that it no longer works!!

The repairer originally suggested adjusting that screw which needs tightening and then suggested touching ES-2. But he now sensibly tells me to return it to him to fix it. So now that it is clear that the adjustment is completely beyond me, I have to do that. Even though he is in Constantinople!

Still, as I may well also need the Movado looking at AND I already have a Vacheron 6397 half way there on its (slow) way to him (and also need a seconds & minute hand for a really pretty little Cyma cal.033), I am getting pretty close to doing that.

DManzaluni · May 14, 2020

I am still a bit hung up on the screw by the black arrow, because it wasnt tight originally and I am now told that it has to be. The ES-1 control doesnt seem now to need any adjustment, depthing seems OK. The height of those two wheels isnt particularly precise but that doesnt seem to affect much.

With the arrowed screw tight, the seconds hand doesnt start at all. If I draw it back a turn and a half, the seconds hand does start and for some reason no longer hunts and doesn't stop at 57!

I wonder if I am actually making any progress? The hunting stopped, the seconds hand does now start on the button. It also stops and re-starts, though it waits a second after the button is pushed before doing so. But after fifteen minutes of leaving the seconds hand running, it suddenly started hunting at and and is stopped at 57 seconds: This with all ES-1 and ES-2 wheels meshing and moving properly! Annoyingly, giving the watch a shake sometimes gets the seconds hand moving AND going past 57 seconds properly for 10-15 more minutes.

And even more annoyingly, after flyback, the seconds hand only sometimes starts. Turning the black arrowed screw a half a turn forward or backwards doesn't seem to do much.

ChrisN · May 14, 2020

DManzaluni
I am still a bit hung up on the screw by the black arrow, because it wasnt tight originally and I am now told that it has to be. The ES-1 control doesnt seem now to need any adjustment, depthing seems OK. The height of those two wheels isnt particularly precise but that doesnt seem to affect much.

With the arrowed screw tight, the seconds hand doesnt start at all. If I draw it back a turn and a half, the seconds hand does start and for some reason no longer hunts and doesn't stop at 57!

The wheels you're talking about should be at the same height so they mesh correctly. There is a tolerance on this but one wheel is adjustable.

Dealing with the screw arrowed, I think you mean this one:

This is a shouldered screw and should be tight. The purpose of this is to stop the coupling yoke (pivoted detent) from lifting off the eccentric ES-1. I have outlined the coupling yoke in red and the eccentric is ES-1 at the lower.

Here is a side elevation of the screw and I've shown the coupling yoke as a red rectangle. If you think of when you tighten this, it will always allow a gap for the coupling yoke to move in but, it won't allow the coupling yoke to lift off.

If you tighten SS-1 and the coupling yoke can't move over to work the chronograph, then you either have the wrong screw in this location or the coupling yoke is bent/damaged. It is very easy to mix these screws up as a lot of them are similar.

The other failures are further down the line and I'd possibly suspect a different issue to the one that you are thinking of.

I do think it needs to go back, sorry. There is quite a lot to understand here and I am very concerned that you'll damage something which happens more often than you'd imagine🙁.

Cheers, Chris

Adjustment of screw(s) on cal.285

DManzaluni

Diabolik

DManzaluni

Diabolik

DManzaluni

Dan S

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

Diabolik

Carlton-Browne

Diabolik

DManzaluni

ChrisN

Diabolik

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

ChrisN

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

ChrisN

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