Looks like an old dial with the lume removed, combined with new hands.
In my opinion this is not attractive at all. Vintage watches should have a warmth and a patina that's built up over years with the watch. The colouring of the lume and hands is a huge part of this appeal and personally, it would have a detrimental effect upon my valuation of a potential purchase.
If your searching for a vintage Speedmaster, I would wait for a better one.
Based on the pictures, the dial plots (the rectangular white markers at 12, 1, 2, 3 etc.) look to be too shiny white for this to be original lume, if indeed lume is present (don't think it is). Look at other pics of vintage speedies and you will see that the lume typically yellows with age and the paint is viscous resulting in it having a 3D appearance.
Lume may have been removed if it had degraded and looked crappy. Zero lume is significant and would significantly lower the value. Personally, I would not buy the watch based on dial condition and replacement hands. If you still want to go after it, you have some leverage with the seller, but if asking price is very high, you may still overpay.
IMO, the lume has been scraped off with the white paint left behind to match the new set of bright white hands to make unsuspecting buyers think that this is a gem. By doing this, the watch has lost a lot of it's character or soul.
Better pictures are needed and I wouldn't be so quick to conclude the lumes are gone on this watch. Those who believe so please have a look at the hands of the watch on the left in the first picture of this thread then read further down to see what I'm talking about: http://omegaforums.net/threads/some-highlights-of-2014-105-003s.20111/. Seeing is sometimes quite deceiving... 😉
Disagree with your comparison which shows that photo over exposure can result in bleached looking hands. The second photo in the series here shows the lume on the hands distinctly as new looking lume, as opposed to blinding white from what may be an over exposed photo. Ditto for the plot lume.
Thanks for the opinions and esteemed advice all around…
Seems like we have pretty much found consensus that the hands are a replacement (but feel free to chime in if anyone thinks otherwise!)
The issue that arises now is whether the dial is a replacement or not... it definitely looks very new and minty. Otherwise, it looks correct for this reference (but please correct me if I am mistaken!)... We have the: -
- Applied Omega logo
- 'Professional' text
- T SWISS MADE T from 28 to 32 minute indices
Some further questions:
(1) Simply, is the dial original / a replacement? Why?
(2) Are there early replacement dials with the same characteristics (e.g. "T SWISS MADE T" and the applied Omega logo) as the original dials? My understanding was that when Omega subsequently serviced these watches, they replaced the dial with new dials without the "T SWISS MADE T" and applied logo...is this true?
(3) I take your points that the lume (or the lack of it) is a red flag...however could it be possible that this dial is original but simply had the lume cleaned off?
If helpful, some background about me and my watch preferences:
- I am looking to acquire my first vintage Speedmaster cal 321
- I have a preference for the earlier, pre-pro models with symmetrical cases
- However, I am looking (dreaming) to build a collection of Speedmasters (one of each reference!) so I am open to acquiring a "newer" vintage Speedmaster first (hence, this is why I am considering this 145.012)
- The typical "vintage" look with tropical-ish, warm dials, a bit of patina (evenly spread, of course), well-aged lume, and generally a little "old" looking is not super important to me personally (alluding to Davidt3449's post from on top) so I do not ascribe too much value to a watch with this characteristics
- Rather, originality is the overarching factor that drives value for me (by far). Condition is important and would be second. My ideal "vintage" speedmaster would be a NOS speedmaster.
With this particular watch, I like the condition and the way it looks very clean and minty, from the bracelet to the dial and movement (assuming it is all original, of course!). Originality is the main issue for me and knowing that this has replacement hands is itself almost a deal breaker for me... Right now I guess I would like to know about the dial and if its original... If its a replacement it'll be the nail in the coffin for sure.
Regarding lume, I do have a preference for well-aged lume hands and indices, but its not a big issue to have un-lumed indices....at least in my current state/maturity in my collecting journey...I do fully appreciate that tastes will evolve with time....Perhaps 5 years from now I will appreciate well-aged lumed indices and hands much more...anyone has a similar experience to share in this regard?
Thanks for taking the time to read / reply. And yes, I will try to get more pictures from the seller.
I agree with most of you
Dial is original in my eyes (it's a step dial - you won't find replacement step dials with TT)
Lume is mostly scratched off (I have one that looks the same)
The scratched off lume decreases the price (in the eyes of most collectors an aged lume (even a degenerated one) appears more attractive)
I tried to increase the picture of the movement to see the number - seems it' a 26'5... number, which is fine for a 145.012-67
The hands are obviously new. First point, they are very shiny, second point: the spear tail should be a bit longer (it is actually slightly longer on the original ones that on the replacement ones - thanx to moonwatchonly...;-)
Case looks polished
In my eyes still an attractive watch (i actually wear one of these with missing lume on a brown alligator strap today - it's got a killer look!
So in the end it all depends on the price....
best regards, Thomas
As fare as I know there were no service dials with the significant step so this makes me belief it is the genuin dial, though the tooth paste white indexes look kind of too good. What would make it sure is having a close look to the bottom of the three totalisators. The 145.012 dials have a very sharply seen structure looking like a good old LP. Never before and after this was so clearly be seen than in those dials.
I do believe that stepped t swiss t Service dials exist and at least i know when it comes to a Non Professional dial.
Early 70ties Service dial with short Plots.
But i dont think that there are t swiss t Service dials with long plots and applied Logo.
However, i have seen dials with long plots and PRINTED logo.
So back to the OP's dial, if you really want to start a serious collection, i would pass on this watch.
Hands are replacement as we said and the plots on the dial are questionable also it might be the orignal dial.
If the lume is still there and aged nicely, it increases the price.
if the lume is scratched off it decreases the price.
if it is a vintage replacement dial without lume it decreases the price.
If it is a modern service dial it decreases the price siginficantly 😉😀
Let's imagine that the dial is original, untouched and the lume hasn't aged, how would that affect it's value.
The reason I ask is that I have an old speedmaster with a similar look to the lume, which still glows very faintly for a few minutes after exposure to a strong light source.
Thanks.
Let's imagine that the dial is original, untouched and the lume hasn't aged, how would that affect it's value.
The reason I ask is that I have an old speedmaster with a similar look to the lume, which still glows very faintly for a few minutes after exposure to a strong light source.
Thanks.
Could you post a picture of your watch? That would be great for comparison against the pictures in the original post!
Here on the left is a 145.012 I had that shows those white index colour coming from underneath the almost completely missing greyish tritium. It can be seen how white it is as it was save under the layer for decades 😁
As fare as I know there were no service dials with the significant step so this makes me belief it is the genuin dial, though the tooth paste white indexes look kind of too good. What would make it sure is having a close look to the bottom of the three totalisators. The 145.012 dials have a very sharply seen structure looking like a good old LP. Never before and after this was so clearly be seen than in those dials.
BASE1000, thanks, I've never read this one before... What to you mean by "sharply seen structure"? I'm in my twenties so I've never actually seen an LP in my lifetime : )
