13ZN Chronographs Inquiries and Information.

S.H. · Mar 22, 2023

Hello,

This one was presented to me yesterday and other than needing a service, a casing screw, a lower crystal and a strap, l feel good about it. It is a postwar 13zn for the French market in a heavy unbranded 18k case, fixed bars, with M and RF (République Française ?) stamps on the movement. Salmon dial and blue tachy scale. Offered with probably its original sewn buckle and strap... Feel free to comment! I 'm not knowledgeable about vintage Longines but thanks to OF, I could quickly get some info 👍

Here are some quick pictures for documentation in case the deal doesn't happen today. If it goes well I will report back with better images.

I' m OK with the price asked so I'll go forward anyway since I like this watch but I must confess I don't know how to value those, a 18k French case being one of the least valued variant. Any idea of a ballpark value for a well working one?

Edit: quick shot from the side:

minutenrohr · Mar 22, 2023

I think this 13ZN is fine and beautiful. Considering that it is not a one-off, i.e. that several examples with this case type (and the "M" on the movement) have appeared over time, it is actually already a category of its own. So I suppose the price depends more on the overall condition (but especially the dial) and the reputation of the seller, rather than whether the case is "original" Longines.

Radiumpassion · Mar 22, 2023

I think it looks good, and the dial and hands are spectacular.

Interesting to see the serial number is also in the range of the
waterproof chronographs from the era. Is it missing just a screw,
or is the movement secured the same way as ref 5415?

minutenrohr · Mar 22, 2023

I think this locking latch belongs more to the 5415 derivatives. On the 18k watch pictured in my post, you can see only a hole (as also shown in the photo of S.H.)

S.H. · Mar 22, 2023

Radiumpassion
I think it looks good, and the dial and hands are spectacular.

Interesting to see the serial number is also in the range of the
waterproof chronographs from the era. Is it missing just a screw,
or is the movement secured the same way as ref 5415?

IMHO it is missing a screw. It has been serviced once, some screws are a bit scratched and there are signs in the case that a screw was here. So shoddy work is my hypothesis. I'll be sure when I dismantle it.

DirtyDozen12 · Mar 22, 2023

@S.H. This 13ZN reminds me of another example that was discussed in this thread in 2018: https://omegaforums.net/threads/13z...ies-and-information.32929/page-15#post-929949

It is a lovely watch. All hands look correct, which is often not the case. Also, that buckle is fantastic. The stamps on the movement match the ones on the example from 2018. I am not sure what the stamp beside the "M" (for metal) stands for. I find it a bit surprising that one movement is gold-plated and the other is rhodium-plated, but this is not a concern. I could imagine the watch selling for 8-10K EUR.

S.H. · Mar 22, 2023

Thanks!

It is now mine ::psy::

I will take better pictures and ask Longines about it. I'll report the results. If it was imported naked or recased from steel it may explain the various plating colors?

minutenrohr · Mar 23, 2023

DirtyDozen12
@S.H. This 13ZN reminds me of another example that was discussed in this thread in 2018: https://omegaforums.net/threads/13z...ies-and-information.32929/page-15#post-929949

Then, in DD12's example, you can see the screw that fixes the movement in the case by turning it a little and thus engaging it in a groove on the inside of the case middle part.
I searched in vain for such an example yesterday, but then stopped after the 3rd non-screw-watch. Why some Fab. Suisse 13ZNs have this screw (but others do not, without the movement wobbling in the case) seems a further Longines mystery, because the type of case seems always the same.

DirtyDozen12 · Mar 23, 2023

S.H.
If it was imported naked or recased from steel it may explain the various plating colors?

That is a good question, I do not know the answer. The other example was re-cased from steel. I have copied part of Longines' response below. It will be neat to see what Longines says about your watch.

Originally, the serial number 7'044'xxx identifies a wrist-chronograph in stainless steel bearing the reference 5009. It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 13ZN and was invoiced on 15 June 1946 to Longines France.

Source: https://omegaforums.net/threads/13z...ies-and-information.32929/page-17#post-946633

S.H. · Apr 10, 2023

DirtyDozen12
That is a good question, I do not know the answer. The other example was re-cased from steel. I have copied part of Longines' response below. It will be neat to see what Longines says about your watch.

Originally, the serial number 7'044'xxx identifies a wrist-chronograph in stainless steel bearing the reference 5009. It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 13ZN and was invoiced on 15 June 1946 to Longines France.

Source: https://omegaforums.net/threads/13z...ies-and-information.32929/page-17#post-946633

Quote from Longines :
A l'origine, le numéro de série 7'206'xxx identifie un chronographe-bracelet en acier inoxydable avec la référence 5213. Il est équipé d'un mouvement Longines mécanique à remontage manuel, calibre 13ZN. Il a été facturé le 7 Février 1947 à notre filiale française.

Le boîtier original en acier était destiné à être détruit lors de l'arrivée de la montre à notre filiale et remplacé par un boîtier en or rose produit localement sous license. Cette manipulation devait permettre de contourner les taxes de douanes élevées auxquelles les montres en or exportées étaient alors soumises.

Meaning: delivered in February 1947 to France as a steel chrono ref 5213. The case was meant to be destroyed on delivery and replaced by a locally manufactured rose gold case. It was switched to avoid import charges, very high on gold watches at the time.

As usual, I am amazed at the Longines historical department efficiency, all this for free. A clever and agreeable way to advertise their brand.

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 10, 2023

@S.H. Thank you for sharing Longines' response. It is always nice when the extract information fits with the watch, though there was nothing questionable about your example.

Reflecting further on the question of gold versus rhodium plating, I generally associate rhodium-plated movements with the French market for the period, mid-1930s to late 1940s. In contrast, I associate gold-plated movements with the British market during the same period. One example of this difference is Longines' WWW (UK) and Marine Nationale (France) watches, which were both produced during the mid-to-late 1940s.

BlueHands · Jun 7, 2023

Hi all,
found this beautiful 13 ZN listed and I would like to know if there are any bad thoughts on the dial? For me it looks very nice. On first sight I thought the minute/hour hands are too short but closer there is a darker ring of the two tone dial, so the minute hand reachs the outer side of this ring. The lugs are facetted and the case seems unpolished 14 K. The crown looks fine too. The counter hands are fitting also? The movement number dates it around 1937/38.

minutenrohr · Jun 7, 2023

Hi Blue Hands,

the watch is undoubtedly beautiful, but maybe a little expensive?
It measures only 34mm, has a (not very popular) gold case, this again only 14K and a small damage/bump on the bezel.

Greetings - HU

DirtyDozen12 · Jun 7, 2023

BlueHands
Hi all,
found this beautiful 13 ZN listed and I would like to know if there are any bad thoughts on the dial? For me it looks very nice. On first sight I thought the minute/hour hands are too short but closer there is a darker ring of the two tone dial, so the minute hand reachs the outer side of this ring. The lugs are facetted and the case seems unpolished 14 K. The crown looks fine too. The counter hands are fitting also? The movement number dates it around 1937/38.

I recognize this watch from many years ago. It was for sale on eBay, along with a few other intriguing examples. I am inclined to believe that the dial is not original. To me, the signature does not look correct. The font is neither the typical Fluckiger style, nor what I would expect from Stern Freres. Further, the two-tone yellow design is highly atypical. I do not recall seeing another original 13ZN dial quite like it before. Additionally, the hour and minute hands are too short, and the chronograph second hand is incorrect. Also, I disagree that the case looks unpolished. Please compare with the example below.

Source: https://www.lacasadellorologio.it/e...-personalizzato-per-maruzzi-asmara-anno-1937/

BlueHands · Jun 7, 2023

Yes it is, you are right. For a 34 mm case it is too expensive, it is not the most desirable size. But I like it and I will spot it a while. I think it is going to rest some time in dealers drawer. Let's hear other opinions about that.

BlueHands · Jun 7, 2023

DirtyDozen12
I recognize this watch from many years ago. It was for sale on eBay, along with a few other intriguing examples. I am inclined to believe that the dial is not original. To me, the signature does not look correct. The font is neither the typical Fluckiger style, nor what I would expect from Stern Freres. Further, the two-tone yellow design is highly atypical. I do not recall seeing another original 13ZN dial quite like it before. Additionally, the hour and minute hands are too short, and the chronograph second hand is incorrect. Also, I disagree that the case looks unpolished. Please compare with the example below.

Hi, thanks very much for your input. I have also never seen such a two-tone dial on a 13 ZN so I wonder about the short hands. The dial has copper toned feet. The Longines font is quite large, too large for this 1930s period? And yes, the comparison with your example shows a polished case, I see.

DirtyDozen12 · Jun 7, 2023

BlueHands
The Longines font is quite large, too large for this 1930s period?

In general, I tend to focus more on the shape of the letters than on the size. In this instance, the shape of the letters is not consistent with original dials from the period.

ulycorn · Jun 14, 2023

Hola Longines OFers!

Been awhile and have paused on my collection for quite a while now as it was getting a little out of hand costwise and with rising costs of living, but saw this 13zn at a pretty reasonable price that may make me make an exception.

I'm more of a dial guy in terms of eval and going through the first 15 or so pages of this thread did not see any examples with the Longines logo in san-serif as this example has which is bringing me to think redial. But i do know that that logo was sometimes used in the 40s as well so wanted to get some of your thoughts and hopefully blessings before I pull the trigger.

Have no idea how to evaluate watch movements and so far for all my conquests and flagships have been relying on the right movement ref etchings so would appreciate any help!

DirtyDozen12 · Jun 14, 2023

Unfortunately, that dial is not original. The signature, as well as the sub-dials, hour markers, and outer track are all giveaways. As a side note, this looks to be ref. 3870.

ulycorn · Jun 14, 2023

DirtyDozen12
Unfortunately, that dial is not original. The signature, as well as the sub-dials, hour markers, and outer track are all giveaways. As a side note, this looks to be ref. 3870.

Cheers mate, appreciate the swift investigation. Always get anxious when looking into the 30CHs and 13ZNs and yall always save the day!