13ZN Chronographs Inquiries and Information.

Seiji · Sep 25, 2016

DirtyDozen12
The three dials above are all poor redials. Are you asking if there are 13ZN dials with the winged hourglass logo?

Yes, that is the question. Seems the dials are all large sub dials. 10,20,30 counters. Black and blue tracks. Ink winged hourglass. These maybe redials, but are there correct ones ever made by Longines?

Seiji · Sep 25, 2016

Seem to be progression of these.

DirtyDozen12 · Sep 25, 2016

13ZN dials can indeed be found with large subdials, "10, 20, 30" counters, black and blue scales, and possibly even printed winged hourglass emblems. Can they be found with all of the above? Who knows.

Rather than attempting to establish a rule, which is bound to have exceptions, I would suggest that you assess each dial individually; studying its specific nuances.

Seiji · Sep 26, 2016

I have come across enough of these inner track is black and outter track is blue. Has 10,20,30 counters. Has ink printed winged hour glass logo to suggest that this is a type of dial. I have not concluded if this is a Longines created type of dial.

io8194 · Oct 1, 2016

DirtyDozen12
Lot 458 looks familiar... http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog_asta.html?hideauctions=1&auctionid=300

Fake dial, wrong crown, pushers seems too long and fake hands (look at the '7' on the dial for example and how long are the hands, and center black hand totally wrong...). And initially the US dealer was famous...

Seiji · Oct 1, 2016

io8194

Fake dial, wrong crown, pushers seems too long and fake hands (look at the '7' on the dial for example and how long are the hands, and center black hand totally wrong...). And initially the US dealer was famous...

Is that the Robert Maron watch?

As far as the dial is concerned, I am not catching what is obvious to you. John Goldberg is showing a similar dial. What is wrong with 7?

io8194 · Oct 1, 2016

Seiji
Is that the Robert Maron watch?

As far as the dial is concerned, I am not catching what is obvious to you. John Goldberg is showing a similar dial. What is wrong with 7?

Well, it is not very fair to say where the watch come from but because you give the name i can confirm that it was from Robert Maron. I do not know which dial Auro Montanari (alis John Goldberger has shown) but to help you to compare here is another pic of Maron's watch and a good one. I think you will see for example the difference with '7' (but there are also other differences...) and the very strange long hands on Maron's model. I hope it has help you.
All the best.
F.

DirtyDozen12 · Oct 1, 2016

io8194

Fake dial, wrong crown, pushers seems too long and fake hands (look at the '7' on the dial for example and how long are the hands, and center black hand totally wrong...). And initially the US dealer was famous...

If you read earlier in this thread, you will see that this watch has been discussed in depth. Your input is appreciated though. 👍

Swissgmt1675 · Oct 6, 2016

Wow...those are so nice !!!!

Swissgmt1675 · Oct 6, 2016

Hummmm...Robert Maron vintage rolexes are often discussed too...😗

Seiji · Oct 6, 2016

I believe he has been in legal troubles over questionable Paul Newmans and other rare Antimagnetiques. Likely at that level, even the professionals have difficulties discerning 100% authentic. Spread too thin.

dodo44 · Oct 8, 2016

This 13ZN chronograph was just sold at a local auction. It went for ~5600 euros +20% buyer's premium=$7500. It is a lovely piece but I have some doubts about it and would like to hear what others have to say. To begin with, I am not aware of any 13ZN with non-vertical numerals (e.g., look at the "1" hour index). The serial number 6442020 corresponds to a 1942 date but the overall style does not look early 40s to me (more 50s). I am also concerned by the discoloration of some bridges. It looks to me like the movement was outside of the case for a while, or some parts were changed. A puzzling thing is that one can find another similar chronograph online with a serial number 6442022 and the back of the case is stamped Longines with the correct serial number. I am wondering whether this could be a case of re-casing by the French agent of Longines. Wittnauer probably also took some freedom with the watches that were sent to the US, changing the case if it did not suit the taste of the client (I think, back then, much of the value was in the movement).

Did I miss a gem? Any thoughts about re-casing by local agents?

120709_45dcc50e0b296733c7b6f8c3b113adc7_normale_zpsq6lpvkwi.jpg

124248_41c7aab40a99b60562cc2f6d3b14f6ac_normale_zpsy3fjyocn.jpg

minutenrohr · Oct 8, 2016

It is nearly impossible to answer the dial-question without better/larger pics.

dodo44 · Oct 8, 2016

Sorry, these are the best pictures that I can retrieve.

Here is another french-cased 13ZNs that has been discussed previously. It is matching numbers on the case and movement but Longines' registry says that the case material does not match with their record.
http://forum.chronomania.net/mix_entry.php?id=231967#.V_j7-ZMrLdQ

Here is another one just 4 serial numbers apart with the same dial/case configuration
http://cda.chronomania.net/forum_entry.php?id=69875

Again, I am mostly puzzled by the non-vertical indices and the overall style that does not match an early 40s movement. Any other 13ZN with non-vertical indices?

minutenrohr · Oct 8, 2016

Non-vertical indices: only "roman"-style - as far as I know. but it´s not impossible...
If there are three very similar cases housing a 13zn + a "fab. suisse" dial, this should be an inicator for (partial) authenticity.
The non-vertical dial looks not bad, but you can only judge it by looking for the dial foot near the balance (should be coppered) and checking
if the golden color is "over" or "under" the black (i.e. golden color should NOT be printed above the black).

rgds - h.u.

http://forum.chronomania.net/mix_entry.php?id=231967#.V_j7-ZMrLdQ

DirtyDozen12 · Oct 8, 2016

I also do not recall encountering a 13ZN with radial numerals such as this however the dial and hands appear to be correct. The "Fab. Suisse" and odd design suggest that the case is French. I believe that this could explain the more contemporary style. What is surprising is the condition of the movement. Here is an even earlier 13ZN with a similar style case and incorrect (30CH or service?) dial. I am curious if this watch also went to France.

http://www.lorologiese.com/us/brand...ourglass-dial-chronoservice-ch-guarantee.html

minutenrohr · Oct 8, 2016

...two pics of a 13zn with a similar french case. That watch has been bought by a german Longines collector (5,8k €) some weeks ago.
The movement has a 6,73 million number, the dial is a transitional, but correct.

minutenrohr · Oct 8, 2016

...concerning the "lorologiese": I believe it´s also a transitional dial. It has three feet ((30CH only two), seems not beautiful but legit to me.
Conclusion: that french Longines agent took different movements (6,400000 to 6,700000) and dials, mounted them in his 18k-french-cases and sold the complete watches ca. 1947-53.

minutenrohr · Oct 8, 2016

sorry, forgot that the minute hand of the lorologiese is too long (=not legit)...

DirtyDozen12 · Oct 8, 2016

@minutenrohr Interesting, thank you for the input. To me, the Lorologiese dial does not look correct for 6.27 million but rather for the period that you suggest.