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13ZN Chronographs Inquiries and Information.

alphabeta81
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Yes I agree - they should be relatively similar if on the same subdial or track etc. But many times not exact as you have noticed and pointed out.

R rondeaux
As a further follow up, how can I learn about how dials such as these were made during this time?

Great question. I don't have a good answer but I am hoping - for my learning sake too - others have a resource to share.
 
BlueHands
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I think a long period about 70, 80 years changes a dial, print and colour has faded, dust and sometimes water damage changed the print. One point more to think about that not every letter is similar to another.
 
R
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Thanks again for the feedback. I was looking for something else but noticed this example in the 1937 French catalog from the vintage Longines site.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PwRLIxwRlS36fhhj24k3bF2-jSesmx0P/view

Dial and case look nearly the same but for the lack of "Fab. Suisse" and slightly different spacing on the "Base 1000" and the subdials. This leads me to think the example in the catalog is a slightly larger dial. Would I be right?

upload_2020-4-29_13-23-13.png
 
Mark020
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AQ doesn't do apologies anyway 😀. They did not even bother to make new pictures anyway.
 
DirtyDozen12
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As @nicola1960 mentioned in his 2017 post on O&P (linked by @Mark020 above), the strange attribute about this dial is the central tachy scale. The steps at "60", "30", and "20" are very atypical. I have seen a couple of other examples of this dial (see below). Comparing this design to a period advert, we see the exact same dial except for the tachy. With regards to AQ's assessment, they state that the watch is "Circa 1950" so they obviously know what they are talking about. 🙄
11.JPG s2.JPG ad.JPG
 
R
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I believe the dial has been cleaned but not refinished. I think that is what the prior listing meant by "refreshed." The AQ example is in fact the same watch posted by @DirtyDozen12 which also appears here - http://watchexpertise.com/oldlonginespassion/Longines_Passion/13ZN_parte_2.html

The website roughly says the following about the watch:
"An example of a 34 mm case, one of the first dials made with 12-1 deco indexes, two-tone silver background, blue helical tachymeter scale and blue peripheral tachymeter scale, beveled bezel, lever buttons, blued leaf spheres, a very rare piece."

If you're not sure they're the same watch, look at the dial marks at hour 5, 3-4 minutes, and 48 minutes. Whoever "refreshed" this dial make it worse IMO considering the dial looks better and more vibrant in the earlier picture.

The wristshot posted by @DirtyDozen12 seems to be a similar example of the same dial, but in a different case and with the silver tone reversed. Nonetheless, this gives more credibility to the originality of the odd tachy scale.

The wristshot and the advert also seem to confirm the odd layout and printing of the subdials. I note the advert shows a different placement of the Longines logo as does the one below with seemingly the same dial. This advert below calls the watch a "146T" which I would assume was a reference for the US Market. Unfortunately, I do not know the year or source of this ad.
upload_2020-5-5_14-34-39.png
 
DirtyDozen12
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Firstly, @rondeaux is right. The dial in question is the same one that I posted above. Secondly, the design and execution of the sub-dials does not bother me in isolation. Though uncommon, this variant can be seen elsewhere. For me, the only issue is the tachy scale that is very unusual for a 13ZN dial. However, given that essentially all other elements of the dial appear correct, I am inclined to say that the dial is probably original.
 
Mark020
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Still (for me) strange the right index seems to be darker printed than the left one. Also the the printing of the 2/4/8/10 which continues into the indexes seems off.
 
alphabeta81
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Mark020 Mark020
Still (for me) strange the right index seems to be darker printed than the left one. Also the the printing of the 2/4/8/10 which continues into the indexes seems off.

I am inclined to believe it is original as well.

The 2/4/8/10 printing is consistent with the 2 examples posted by @DirtyDozen12 as well.

While "darkness" inconsistency looks odd, but it is consistent - notice the 34 from the track being much lighter than the 32 above or the 36 below. And then the 60 50 40 30 from the left counter being light, similarly. And on the outer mile track, some remnants of 7 8 remain, butby 9 it's all gone. So the "consistency of fade" here to me gives more credence, as opposed to a reprinted counter where usually this consistency is lacking.
 
R
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Mark020 Mark020
Still (for me) strange the right index seems to be darker printed than the left one. Also the the printing of the 2/4/8/10 which continues into the indexes seems off.

Agreed it is strange but take a close look at the ad. I get the same impressions - the minute counter appears darker than the running seconds and at least the 10-8-4 are overlapping the subdials. It seems probable that these are actual qualities of an original dial.

upload_2020-5-5_18-25-35.png
 
minutenrohr
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I can provide pics from an auction in 2012. "Longines" is written like in the catalogue pics above, just below the "12". Closed "6" in the left counter is unusual - as "standing" numerals in both counters. At that time, the supplier of this 20448 often sold assembled watches. Unfortunately I do not know more about this and the watch in question...

13zn stahl ref20448.jpg
 
S
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
Firstly, @rondeaux is right. The dial in question is the same one that I posted above. Secondly, the design and execution of the sub-dials does not bother me in isolation. Though uncommon, this variant can be seen elsewhere. For me, the only issue is the tachy scale that is very unusual for a 13ZN dial. However, given that essentially all other elements of the dial appear correct, I am inclined to say that the dial is probably original.

Gentlemen....Not directly related to the conversation, but I was wondering if all you wonderfully knowledgeable people can personally recommend reputable dealers for vintage watches. Doesn’t have to be specializing in Longines, but must be legit. Any one out there? Thanks...
 
Dan S
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S Solomini
Gentlemen....Not directly related to the conversation, but I was wondering if all you wonderfully knowledgeable people can personally recommend reputable dealers for vintage watches. Doesn’t have to be specializing in Longines, but must be legit. Any one out there? Thanks...

I recommend searching for previous threads on the topic. I just did a Google search for recommended dealers, constrained to omegaforums.net, and found dozens of threads.
 
DirtyDozen12
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I wonder if the AQ dial has "Swiss" at 6. I can just make it out on the dial that @minutenrohr posted, which is from the same order (20448) that surely went to the USA (see LXW import mark on the balance cock). Below is another example with the high signature and non-stepped tachymeter scale.
upload_2020-5-6_11-32-57.png
 
Mark020
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No 2-4-8-10 printing in the subdials on this one
 
R
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
I wonder if the AQ dial has "Swiss" at 6.

As best as I can see, I don't think it does. Do you have any more information on the below example you posted?
s2.JPG
 
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