13ZN Chronographs Inquiries and Information.

love4watches_pt · Apr 21, 2020

OMG🥱 It sold over 15000usd! Any particular thing about this reference? We all know about the 13zn value...but add the value to recover this case/dial/parts of the movement...I dont know..for me its just ridiculus money spending?! or Maybe these 13zn will be the next Paul Newman? Any thoughts? Remember, just a rookie here😉

Dan S · Apr 21, 2020

love4watches_pt
OMG🥱 It sold over 15000usd! Any particular thing about this reference? We all know about the 13zn value...but add the value to recover this case/dial/parts of the movement...I dont know..for me its just ridiculus money spending?! or Maybe these 13zn will be the next Paul Newman? Any thoughts? Remember, just a rookie here😉

It's a jumbo waterproof model, but still, I'm surprised so many bidders went so high. The case is useful, but it seems incredibly unlikely that the watch can really be restored.

love4watches_pt · Apr 21, 2020

Dan S
It's a jumbo waterproof model, but still, I'm surprised so many bidders went so high. The case is useful, but it seems incredibly unlikely that the watch can really be restored.

After 5k there was only 3 bidders...

Dan S · Apr 21, 2020

love4watches_pt
After 5k there was only 3 bidders...

Yes, and all of them went to at least $13,750, which is pretty shocking to me.

Mark020 · Apr 21, 2020

I think the movement can be saved with a lot of money and patience. Perhaps somebody has a correct dial.

BlueHands · Apr 21, 2020

minutenrohr
Anything is possible. But normally the effort necessary for this restoration is only done in museum restoration workshops. I think it's a few months' work...

Surely some parts have to be rebuilt, because there are so rusty and destroyed. That is surely a work for a specialist, maybe at home in
St. Imier. The price for that "ruin" is 😲....

Dan S · Apr 21, 2020

Mark020
I think the movement can be saved with a lot of money and patience. Perhaps somebody has a correct dial.

I suppose the top bidders agree with you, but I would dread the expression on my watchmakers face if I brought this to him. 😲

jsducote · Apr 21, 2020

Dan S
I suppose the top bidders agree with you, but I would dread the expression on my watchmakers face if I brought this to him. 😲

I think he'd smile ear-to-ear, knowing that you're about to make his boat payment.

gemstar · Apr 21, 2020

If this was a 13zn12 then imagine what that would have went for

killer67 · Apr 21, 2020

Mark020
I think the movement can be saved with a lot of money and patience. Perhaps somebody has a correct dial.

moat savvy buyers get an extract and Longines has been very diligent on record keeping. Many, if not most, auctioned watches have dials that do not match the extract so it has become harder to put any dial in a case (assuming you want a fully correct watch)

Tupaja · Apr 24, 2020

Hi everybody,

Very interesting and educational thread this is! Not sure I'm understanding everything 100% since English isn't my native language though.
Would anyone be so kind to give his/hers opinion on the 13ZN below?
I'm following this one on an online auction which is due tomorrow and has an estimate of 6- 7 kEUR with a current highest bid of 2.2 kEUR.
Reference on the movement and inside case back do match, not sure about the crown and perhaps the dial is too clean for a watch dating back to the forties.

Many thanks on your input,
Tupaja

Radiumpassion · Apr 24, 2020

T Tupaja
Hi everybody,

Very interesting and educational thread this is! Not sure I'm understanding everything 100% since English isn't my native language though.
Would anyone be so kind to give his/hers opinion on the 13ZN below?
I'm following this one on an online auction which is due tomorrow and has an estimate of 6- 7 kEUR with a current highest bid of 2.2 kEUR.
Reference on the movement and inside case back do match, not sure about the crown and perhaps the dial is too clean for a watch dating back to the forties.

Many thanks on your input,
Tupaja

Hello, and welcome to the danger zone😉

I am not familiar with this model, but based on the poor pictures provided
I think it looks ok. Maybe the sweep second is broken or a replacement.

What is the diameter of the case?

Tupaja · Apr 24, 2020

Radiumpassion
Hello, and welcome to the danger zone😉

I am not familiar with this model, but based on the poor pictures provided
I think it looks ok. Maybe the sweep second is broken or a replacement.

What is the diameter of the case?

Yes, I know the pictures aren't that good but those are the best offered online.
I assume a replaced sweep second hand isn't the worst there is.
The seller claims a case diameter of 37mm.in rose gold.

Radiumpassion · Apr 24, 2020

T Tupaja
Yes, I know the pictures aren't that good but those are the best offered online.
I assume a replaced sweep second hand isn't the worst there is.
The seller claims a case diameter of 37mm.in rose gold.

No it is not, but please get a second opinion before you break the bank.
37mm seems right based on the pictures, and if the dial is original I think the
estimate is within range.

Tupaja · Apr 24, 2020

Radiumpassion
No it is not, but please get a second opinion before you break the bank.
37mm seems right based on the pictures, and if the dial is original I think the
estimate is within range.

The (re)dial is my main concern and, off course, the movement but since it are matching numbers with the inside case back, I'm not too worried on the movement (also being a non-flyback which is correct for what I know). The copper base point of the dail on the movement gives me some courage. Thanks for your opinion, much appreciated!

minutenrohr · Apr 25, 2020

The watch looks correct to me. Probably not all hands, but movement, case and dial are in my opinion typical (and not restored) for a gold 13ZN from the mid 40ies.
Better pictures would allow a better evaluation.

rondeaux · Apr 28, 2020

Well I've had this thread saved for a while now and now I've finally had some time to sit and read through the whole thing. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and for sparking such insightful discussions. I may never actually come to own a 13ZN but I definitely have a deeper appreciation for all of them now. I've also had quite a lot of fun going through and reviewing the examples to see which are redials and which are legitimate.

I think I understand how most of the opinions are reached here but the dial below (posted on p. 30 on 3/8/19) has me stumped. The majority of details seem right but there's a few small things bothering me. I'm hoping someone can explain what I'm seeing so I'll have a better understanding going forward.

I know there aren't really many bright line rules when it comes to examining these watches and it's more of a factored analysis. But generally, I thought numerals and letters should be identical within the same fonts or functions - e.g., all the 0s in a minute counter or all the Es in telemetre should look identical. On this example, the 2s in the minute track and the 4s in the tachy scale seem inconsistent to me. The 2 in 20 seems much thinner and a little straighter through the middle than the 2 in 25. Also, the 4s in the tachy scale seem especially varied in terms of style and thickness as I've circled below.

So, if this dial is legitimate, what would explain these variations in the numerals?

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 28, 2020

R rondeaux
But generally, I thought numerals and letters should be identical within the same fonts or functions - e.g., all the 0s in a minute counter or all the Es in telemetre should look identical.

Inconveniently, this is not always the case on original dials. The variations that you highlighted are widespread.

alphabeta81 · Apr 28, 2020

Variation of the 20 and 25 is very common, as proven in archival pictures from Longines showing the original watches. I see no concern over this (my guess is that it has more to do with the angle of print than anything else)

Broadly speaking, I think you are givint too much credit for it to be "identical" - this was circa 80 years ago when the dial quality was amazing but it was not machine generated exactness. They "should be in the realm" but I think if you are striving for 10x zoom exactness, in some cases with certain dials that happened and in others there is a slight variance.

A few examples of known correct dials (with 20 25 variation) and 1 archival image from Longines (sorry it's not crisp but it has the same 2 variation in 20 25)

Same holds for the 4's question you have. Here is another known correct dial - and I have the Longines original archival image showing the same but that is black and white and not as crisp, so go with this one - but you can see variance all over. Look at the 3 in 23 and 38. Heck, look at the 2 in 24 vs 120.

So I believe your question of "what would explain these variations in the numerals [in legitimate dials]?" was based on a false notion that you had where "generally, I thought numerals and letters should be identical - e.g., all the 0s in a minute counter should look identical." - that just is not true and was never true and the Longines original archival images themselves show that not to be true. Hope that helps somewhat.

rondeaux · Apr 29, 2020

Thank you both for the explanations! Would it be more accurate to modify my original statement to say "numerals and letters should be relatively similar and of the same style within specific fonts and functions"? It seems like the consistency I'm looking for really depends on the specific dial batch.

As a further follow up, how can I learn about how dials such as these were made during this time?