Conway/Spicer inspired eBay listing...

 

wow, this is interestingly not good. any vintage el primero fan would spot the differences quickly.

 

Here we go wasting an hour of my life before everyone on hear loses their minds over something they don't have all the FACTS on!...
Yes check my profile, very little action on forums but for good reason.
That doesn't discount though what I may or may not know, understand, have dealt in or my potential experience.
If you check our website (ww.retrovintagewatch.com) and 'Orologium' Instagram you will see we have bought, sold and stock numerous Zenith El Primeros/Chronos from 1960s/70s...

@LouS We were also the first to notice the 'screaming error' in Rosslers book when we correctly listed a G581 acquired by us in 2011 and Sold Jan 2012 http://www.retrovintagewatch.com/zenith-el-primero-chronograph-18ct-gold.html (this was also pulled into a Forum thread and heavily discussed until you all realised Rosslers and your own mistake)

So calm down, listen in and I will detail exactly what has gone on with the G381 we currently have for sale...

THE FACTS

We acquired this watch several years ago from a gentleman in France.

I then parked the watch in my safe wondering what to do with it as it seemed an unusual thing, and wanted to investigate how it had come about.

Fast-forward a few years and we notice Mick Tock has acquired an 18ct tonneau case El Primero with Tri Colour subs (yes with correct font) but still with Gold batons (never seen before). Nobody really takes this watch to task over whether someone has just Gold Plated some batons, but why would we? Its Mick Tocks, it must be correct and we will praise it no end now the case has been refinished beautifully (no serial number, so we can never properly check).
(Don't get me wrong Mick has some stunning watches and I'm not attacking what he has, I am merely comparing how forums seem to respond)

So we decide to dig our watch out of the safe and begin to investigate it. We start by applying for an Archive Extract from Zenith which was done by sending them full photography of the watch (Note how this fact is constantly overlooked in this forum thread).
We receive the Extract and it comments on the Tri-colour sub dials in the G381 case (written on the extract itself from Zenith)
I then begin an email back and forth with Zeniths archive departmant to find out how many G381 came with a Tri colour dial, they confirm that only 'a few low numbers' were produce but this is encompassed in the total 700 G381s.
I comment on the fact the watch came with what looks like a 1980s/1990s service pouch and a fairly fresh Zenith strap and buckle (also 80s/90s), so did they have any record of the watch being at service with them and what work was done. Unfortunately no record as they only go back 20 years or so.
At this point there is no comment from Zenith what so ever of it being a Service dial.

So with the Extract and the emails from Zenith I book an appointment with Paul Maudsley at Phillips to see if they are interested in putting the watch in their Geneva sale.
Down we go to London with the Zenith and a Vacheron to be featured. We discuss the watch etc etc, the extract is left and some emails from Zenith shown. The watch is sent to Bacs in Geneva checked again and catalogued.

Still no comment on Service dial

Then BOOM this forum thread starts, you all start crying and claiming 'this must have happened' and 'that must have happened' (I laughed the most at the thought of someone painstakingly applying patina marks to the Sub dials @Mlafra )

Further investigation then ensues between myself, Phillips, Bacs and Zenith...
The watch is taken apart and enlarged photos front and back of the dial are shown to Zenith, they confirm they did make the dial but appear confused as the font of the El Primero looks like that of something from the 1980s. We investigate further using advertising from the time and Zenith admit that they did conceive that font in 1969/70s but can't confirm if it ever made it on to a watch dial.
The quality of the batons when viewed close up has also left Zenith thinking that they did this work (The only real patina is on the lume in the baton)

Because of the way it was Catalogued at Phillips we all thought it could look deceiving and so decided to pull the watch from the Auction as it was too late to amend the notes or highlight the full story.

Note that the IWC that was commented on in the Forum thread was left in and sold for big money and no-one seems to be crying about that. But that is none of my business.

So we have left it a few months and now listed it on our website and eBay with a brief overview of what we know about this watch.
Yes we believe it is a Service dial but we also believe it is work done by Zenith themselves.
Regardless of what @LouS thinks ever existed in the entire history of Zenith (because presumable he hasn't handled everything ever produced as it left the factory). It is believed by Us and Zenith that Gold case watches with Tri-colour Sub dials did exist (Hence Mick Tocks G3817) and so it is therefore completely possible that Zenith did what they did with this watch to keep a G381 with Tri-Colour subs looking like how it had started life.

I'm not interested in hearing any responses claiming Franken or how they think we were all trying to deceive with the Phillips auction because it simply isn't true and is all just forum BS to make you look like you think know what your talking about.
I appreciate Forums are here for discussion and that is fine but stick to the FACTS in this case and try to be constructive. Also maybe have the decency to open the discussion up to the person who owns the watch instead of just hiding behind your keyboard slating everything.

As a final note to show that we deal regularly in a lot of rare vintage Zenith here is a photo of our current stock...

 

I Guess, at least serviced dial from later period is an obvious agreeable ground then. The golden furnitures on such a service dial are of course outliers, and in my opinion, it is the seller's burden to prove his/her case still....

 

I agree... Hence why I questioned Zenith and they seemed confident it was work done by them. How did @Mick Tock justify the Gold batons on his G3817 that is so praised?

 

Then you should have an official statement from them confirming so.... I have requested archives of zenith watches dating back to the 60s, I understand that service archive may not be the same (but it would be a bit doubtful for them to not be able to given it is not too far back vs. 1960). But if there are a few out there, it will be found one day and that can be used as a more reliable reference barring the fact that it seems other credible reference source seem to not be able to confirm....

 

Ok, so if Mick Tocks is deemed by him as 'probably unique' suggesting a one off then other one off pieces could have been produced making finding other examples extremely difficult. The infamous Hodinkee have also promoted this watch for Mick Tock, are either of these 2 deemed as credible reference source? What determines a credible source?...
In my opinion I have described my G381 to the fullest and best possible with all the information available what more do you suggest? Or should I just lock it back in the safe and be told I'm not allowed to sell it?

 

Unfortunately, in the convoluted world of vintage watches, your own judgment and due diligence is the best source. For me, I won't pay for mick tock's watch unless he can prove to me with an official document or archives from zenith etc. Etc. Nor will I trust hodinkee for their endorsement unless they can provide evidence that would suffice for my judgment to accept. The burden is on the seller. Of course, different people have different thresholds of what is acceptable, I can only speak for myself and I have spoken. I rest my case....

 

Have you checked the sale listing? I have an Archive Extract and this and emails from Zenith confirms Tri-colour subs existed in G381 cases, this is written by Zenith in the 'Remarks' section of the Extract and signed by Zenith Heritage Department, check the photos...

 

The issue at hand with this particular watch is not that. It is

1) it is a serviced dial
2) the dial has gold markers which is a whole new ball game of research required for a tricolor serviced dial.
3) that is because service dial is much easier to source and manipulate....

 

You said in your previous post that you would require an Archive Extract, so I was highlighting that it had one...

I agree it is a service dial and that is in my listing description... Read the full story of my original post and that explains the Gold markers so far as what I have discussed with Phillips and Zenith...

My original issue and reason for putting such a lengthy post was because of the usual forum BS presumptions and felt it necessary to clarify what had gone on to silence the people slating and accusing without fully understanding.
Out of interest is LouS also Louis Vintage from Hodinkee?...

 

LouS is LouS ...nothing related to Hodinkee... and one of the most repectable member here.

 

Dear good sir,

I have met Louis in person, I have a lot of respect for him but it doesn't mean I will take every thing he said as correct. Same as Lous, he has my utmost respect for being very knowledgeable and if you ask him for any thoughts and idea privately, he will spend the time to give you his answer to the best of his knowledge thoughtfully. But there are also instances in this forum where he said thanks for giving him the light bulb moment. And like you said, there is no one on the planet who could have handled every single zenith..... and again I can only speak for myself on how I view this particular watch, which is, it is the burden of the seller to prove the outstanding issue, in my opinion.... I truly rest my case this time.

Kind regards,
Eric

 

I'm not disputing Lous respectability, merely questioning the way in which this thread was started and failed to ask the correct questions of the people involved and that had handled this specific watch. A certain amount of knowledge does not give any one person the right to dis-respect others who at the time had done nothing wrong in advertising a watch with the information they had and then slated it again when listed on eBay with an overview of what had been investigated...

 

I'm not disputing Lous respectability, merely questioning the way in which this thread was started and failed to ask the correct questions of the people involved and that had handled this specific watch. A certain amount of knowledge does not give any one person the right to dis-respect others who at the time had done nothing wrong in advertising a watch with the information they had and then slated it again when listed on eBay with an overview of what had been investigated...
I appreciate your opinion and do not disagree with what you are saying.
Regards

 

Can be interesting to see some detailed photos, front and back, of both dial from this G3XYZ models,
this and the other from Mick Toc !!
Maybe we can add some nice and interesting news....

GIGI

 

Ridiculous! The incorrect hands are instantly identified, shameful work by Phillips all around.

 

...and now Hodinkee has weighed in with a "Bidder Beware" warning, and a nod to this thread.