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Zenith bumper on Catawiki

Geezer
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Nice watch.

Why do you think the case has been replaced?

I don't see anything wrong with the watch except for the replacement crown.
 
DirtyDozen12
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Below are photos of the watch for posterity. I am not well-versed in Zenith, but the font of the outer scale strikes me as odd. Also, is the signature too large? I posted two examples that look comparable further below. The font of the outer scales looks familiar, to me, from dials that were used by other brands from the period.

upload_2023-11-6_21-48-9.png upload_2023-11-6_21-47-41.png upload_2023-11-6_21-57-24.png upload_2023-11-6_21-57-54.png


Source: https://www.alexandrelandre.com/en/...8k-yellow-gold-bracelet-case-round-case-press
upload_2023-11-6_22-16-34.png upload_2023-11-6_22-19-6.png upload_2023-11-6_22-20-52.png upload_2023-11-6_22-21-35.png


Source: https://www.vintagegoldwatches.com/product/zenith-automatic-cal-133-8-9ct-c1954/
upload_2023-11-6_22-22-49.png upload_2023-11-6_22-23-42.png
 
Geezer
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I think you're right, the dial does look a bit off. The signature is very big, and I would also expect it to be printed with "automatic".
 
CaptainWinsor
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Geezer Geezer
Nice watch.

Why do you think the case has been replaced?

I don't see anything wrong with the watch except for the replacement crown.

I have an extensive list of the bumpers with serial numbers and case movements. In my records, this was previously in an 18K case
 
CaptainWinsor
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Yes the dial looks off too. Didn’t notice the no AUTOMATIC. Also, the dial style looks more like the early 133s and 133.8 but the serial is very late in the production run
 
Tony C.
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No way that an original dial would lack "automatic" on the dial. Keep in mind that during that time period, automatic watches were still a relative novelty, and no manufacturer would have chosen to hide the feature!
 
Bernhard J
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No rule without exception. In have a Tissot PR 516, new old stock, mint, and clearly original all the way. But the dial does not say "Automatic", although a cal. 784 (automatic) is fitted. There are, however, identical dials and cases, but with the "Automatic" inscription, just from another production run.

So the missing "Automatic" on the instant dial seems to be strong evidence, but imo alone is no absolute proof.

Best, Bernhard
 
Tony C.
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
In have a Tissot PR 516, new old stock, mint, and clearly original all the way

Your Tissot is not analogous, as it was manufactured at the earliest in the '60s, when the novelty of automatic movements had largely passed. Can you provide a single, compelling example of an automatic manufactured in the '40s through late '50s without the dial designation?
 
Bernhard J
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Nothing easier than that. Look at the Harwoods, I do not know a single example WITH the dial designation "automatic" ... 😎😉
 
Tony C.
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Good point! 👍

Any examples from major brands?
 
Bernhard J
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Not instantly. Aside the fact, that any specific example might be argued as a redial. 😁
 
CaptainWinsor
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
No rule without exception. In have a Tissot PR 516, new old stock, mint, and clearly original all the way. But the dial does not say "Automatic", although a cal. 784 (automatic) is fitted. There are, however, identical dials and cases, but with the "Automatic" inscription, just from another production run.

So the missing "Automatic" on the instant dial seems to be strong evidence, but imo alone is no absolute proof.

Best, Bernhard

I have never seen a Zenith bumper without the word automatic. The watch is not legitimate since the case has been swapped out and the case number and serial don’t line up
 
Tony C.
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
Here's one: Patek Philippe ref. 2526.

Good example, and explicable, as PP typically employed understated dial designs, and did not require overt marketing for their relatively small, exclusive client base.
 
DirtyDozen12
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Tony C. Tony C.
Good example, and explicable, as PP typically employed understated dial designs, and did not require overt marketing for their relatively small, exclusive client base.
Agreed. I am struggling to come up with other examples. Even V&C adorned their dials with "Automatic" when applicable.
 
CaptainWinsor
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Zenith, I believe, was the first bumper automatic with central seconds. The first cal 133 always had automatic on the dial, same with the 133.8. I’ve not seen enough examples of the cal 71 to say that definitively but I think Zenith wouldn’t put out some pieces without that on the dial. This was a company who had won the Neufchâtel Observatory award 5 years straight and was very proud of their achievements. I’ll post a pic of what I believe the dial should look like with a serial number that high
 
DTMwatch
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Interesting topic and I appreciate all of the insights. My cal. 71 dial has the automatic inscription on it. I too have not seen any without it when looking at these great Zeniths from the 40s and 50s. However, I am no expert.
IMG_0052.jpeg
 
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