When did restoration become a dirty word?

oddboy · Nov 5, 2015

Isn't there room for both in the market? Of course, collectors would always prefer original, untouched, unrestored.. but there are watches out there that are pretty much unwearable in their current state that could be turned into decent wearables for people that don't fancy themselves to be collectors.

One of my first Omega's was a Mark II. It was in cruddy condition when I bought it, but it was cheap. I had it restored, by Omega. It will never find itself into a 'real' collection, but it looks great and runs smooth. I feel like I got a good deal for the price of the watch plus service (even though I'd probably be in the hole if I were ever to sell it).

Restored will never be as valuable as original, that is true. But a watch in really bad condition can be restored to nice condition, if done properly, and that's good enough for many - but the two paths are preferred by people with different end goals and perspectives.

Having walked both sides, I would say that original feels more 'autentic' and in a way, more satisfying. There's something nice about knowing (or at least believing) that a watch on your wrist hasn't been mucked with and that the signs of age are real; that it's a quality piece that stands up to the abuse it was intended to withstand.

..and if you want a better comparison, compare vintage watches to actresses. Would you prefer restored or original? 😉

wsfarrell · Nov 5, 2015

flyingout
Thinking about Antiques Roadshow, since that's a wide variety, most collectables seem suffer from refinishing. Furniture especially. Paintings and paper items can be cleaned, repaired, and restored, however. There was a Native American leather item that was dinged for being dry and stiff. Softening it would increase value.

Any other areas of antique or vintage that tolerate restoration better?

Reminds me of a Roadshow episode where the twins (can't recall their name) gushed over a large credenza a couple had brought in. At the end, one of them said "This is a simply amazing piece. If you hadn't refinished it, it would be valued at over $200,000. As it stands, it's worth about $2,000." The look on the "restorers" faces was a sight to behold.

ulackfocus · Nov 5, 2015

wsfarrell
Reminds me of a Roadshow episode where the twins (can't recall their name) gushed over a large credenza a couple had brought in. At the end, one of them said "This is a simply amazing piece. If you hadn't refinished it, it would be valued at over $200,000. As it stands, it's worth about $2,000." The look on the "restorers" faces was a sight to behold.

Saw something similar with a tall chest. The owner was proud of the job he did removing all that scaling old finish and redoing it with stain. Dropped the value to $5k instead of $50k.

oddboy
Isn't there room for both in the market? Of course, collectors would always prefer original, untouched, unrestored.. but there are watches out there that are pretty much unwearable in their current state that could be turned into decent wearables for people that don't fancy themselves to be collectors.

One of my first Omega's was a Mark II. It was in cruddy condition when I bought it, but it was cheap. I had it restored, by Omega. It will never find itself into a 'real' collection, but it looks great and runs smooth. I feel like I got a good deal for the price of the watch plus service (even though I'd probably be in the hole if I were ever to sell it).

Restored will never be as valuable as original, that is true. But a watch in really bad condition can be restored to nice condition, if done properly, and that's good enough for many - but the two paths are preferred by people with different end goals and perspectives.

Having walked both sides, I would say that original feels more 'autentic' and in a way, more satisfying. There's something nice about knowing (or at least believing) that a watch on your wrist hasn't been mucked with and that the signs of age are real; that it's a quality piece that stands up to the abuse it was intended to withstand.

..and if you want a better comparison, compare vintage watches to actresses. Would you prefer restored or original? 😉

Yes, you can buy a vintage watch in less than perfect condition, or one that's beat up and replace parts to make it a decent daily driver.

As far as actresses, it depends on the amount of work done. 😉 Have you ever dated an actress? They never really stop acting. 🤦 😵‍💫

Modest_Proposal · Nov 5, 2015

You see, most collectors are not against removing imperfections, per se, if you define an imperfection as "a deviation from the original". I think most hardcore collectors would.

Taken with that definition, it is actually impossible to remove imperfections. No amount of case welding or touch ups will ever answer the call.

As for the "recent" emphasis on originality - I think the time period we live in provides us with a perspective that those in the 1900's-1960's didn't have. We now live beyond the near collapse of the swiss industry. Of the mechanical age. It supplies us with the idea that they ain't making any more of them.

flyingout · Nov 5, 2015

wsfarrell
Reminds me of a Roadshow episode where the twins (can't recall their name) gushed over a large credenza a couple had brought in. At the end, one of them said "This is a simply amazing piece. If you hadn't refinished it, it would be valued at over $200,000. As it stands, it's worth about $2,000." The look on the "restorers" faces was a sight to behold.

Right. But I'm often puzzled in the other direction. "It's a $2000 painting, but if you put $500 into restoring it, the auction estimate is $4000." Whaa? I get that an attractive object might command more; the work is done. But from a valuation perspective, well, math.

ulackfocus · Nov 5, 2015

ahsposo
A little Tung oil and WOW!

You licked a piece of furniture? 😲 Ew! 🤨

ahsposo · Nov 5, 2015

U ulackfocus
You licked a piece of furniture? 😲 Ew! 🤨

Hey, it was no worse than a big popsicle stick...

Nobel Prize · Nov 5, 2015

To me it depends on the piece. Some items are so historical or horoligicaly valuable (not just $) that given the option one always will want them as untouched as possible. Other items are just personal preferences as they are pretty much going to stay as they are and they are more fun to wear than to just look at. Lastly there are items we may all like to have, new, vintage or in between that fall into "I like it so who gives a shit really!" Then there are compromises you make for emotional reasons.

In the house example (bad example BTW) if the house is made by a famous architect or designer and the restoration is so involved, like you sand a wall so much that it falls apart, or you change the original doors imported from India...then some buyers may very well pass on it, those buyers interested on the historic significance of the architecture or design. The ones that just need shelter won't give a shit.

To me personally when a watch is changed because it needs to be serviced, or a part is broken etc it remains a great and interesting watch. And in some cases a ver very interesting watch, like when the damage is due to a significant circumstance. What I like less is when a watch is tampered just to make it look a specific way for no other reason than that, or even worse, because a certain cooked patina will sell more than it's natural aging etc..That I don't like.

tpatta · Nov 5, 2015

U ulackfocus
The hunt, the kill, showing off the trophy...... that's the fun. Making a profit is nice but it isn't the driving thought behind the process.

Have to agree with this. Hunting it down is half the fun. Do I hope to make a profit in 5-10 years? Sure. But if I don't I still have some really sweet watches that my son-in-law will end up with. 😁

Nobel Prize · Nov 5, 2015

tpatta
Have to agree with this. Hunting it down is half the fun. Do I hope to make a profit in 5-10 years? Sure. But if I don't I still have some really sweet watches that my son-in-law will end up with. 😁

At which point it is only appropriate to post a picture of your daughter to give us all a fair chance....just saying....

DON · Nov 5, 2015

I restored probably about 400 watches. Case polish, redial etc. All sold. Clients were those wanting a vintage watch with a new look. Nothing rare. Longines, Omega. Whatever I thought would sell I did.

Houses, cars etc. Always a company out there that will restore one thing or another and loads get it done everyday.

Why is it. that some will restore some things, but not others?

I don't believe in removing engravings off the backs. I just refresh the old and give it new life

I did this one as a fantasy probably about 12 years ago. Told the refinisher what I wanted done. Gone in a day for someones wife and she loved it. When I got it. It was fair condition and non running. Now it's being used

DON

kippyk · Nov 6, 2015

My father knew a jeweler back in the day who used to falsify patina on antiques. He would get something carved into a whale tooth, and then soak it in tea. Now you got yourself a carved artifact from an 1800's whaling ship. I remember overhearing that it was authenticated by experts.

Peemacgee · Nov 6, 2015

watchtinker
I repeat what I have already written in another thread: my opinion is that most collectors do not buy a watch because they like it but for the simple reason that they believe that they will be able, if they wish, to sell it with a profit at a later time.

I think we have to be careful that we don't end up being the 'thought police' -each to their own

But I can't agree that most collectors only collect for potential value -if so they would be just 'amassers' not collectors.
I would personally only actively collect something I liked -especially watches as I want to wear them
Collectors collect for the love of it -for the hunt, for the knowledge, for the bargain -and eventually for that perfect piece

Unrestored items -in good untouched condition - are special and rarer than the norm and so are more desirable -and therefore it follows that they will inevitably be more valuable
-and of course we all like to feel that we own something special and valuable -it adds to the kudos of the piece -but is rarely the primary attraction

After discussing the process and involvement in finding a good vintage watch -I told an Indian colleague of mine that my watches were an investment -they simply replied "why don't you just buy gold"
QED

Northernman · Nov 6, 2015

I personally love a vintage watch, and I do not mind "good" patina.
However when a part is no longer functional then repairing the original (as in restoring), or having it replaced with a good one must be ok IMO.
I keep museum items out of the equation. When you put stuff in museums you are taking it away from its original use in order to be observed.

My watch on the wrist this morning is an example:
EP4 chronograph. The dial had water damage to it. It was corroded and flaking/de-laminating resulting in pieces of it finding its way into the otherwise perfectly fine movement.
Manage to source a service dial, and I have loved and worn it many times since.

watchtinker · Nov 6, 2015

I would like to thank M'Bob for having started this interesting discussion and all the people who spared their time to share their opinions, all perfectly respectable.
Thank you all.

Davidt · Nov 6, 2015

I think the house analogy actually backs up the preference for originality over restored. Take an old Listed Building in the UK. They're not especially rare, as there are thousands of Grade 2 listings. Yet although you can decorate, replace carpets and usually kitchens and bathroom any significant alterations to the fabric of the building require permission. Furthermore, an old house with original fireplaces, coving, stone work, iron mongery etc will always be worth more than one than has had these features removed and modernised.

I think there may be some people at the minute looking to 'invest' in certain watches, Speedmasters being a possibility. But the idea that a large proportion of collectors don't buy what they like, but buy as an investment is very wide of the mark. Originality is key and it is this preservation of originality that drives many collectors, especially on forums like this. Like anything people prefer to pay around market value and know that they have a reasonable chance of getting their money back should they need or decide to sell, but this is less because of investment return and more to ensure funds for the next chase!

MSNWatch · Nov 6, 2015

tpatta
Have to agree with this. Hunting it down is half the fun. Do I hope to make a profit in 5-10 years? Sure. But if I don't I still have some really sweet watches that my son-in-law will end up with. 😁

Finding top condition all original vintage omegas makes the hunt long and challenging but the end result is all that more satisfying. Some models I've waited many years for to locate sometimes after having the opportunity to purchase dozens of examples.

citizenrich · Nov 6, 2015

kippyk
My father knew a jeweler back in the day who used to falsify patina on antiques. He would get something carved into a whale tooth, and then soak it in tea. Now you got yourself a carved artifact from an 1800's whaling ship. I remember overhearing that it was authenticated by experts.

90% of tropical(ized) Rolex dive and explorers didn't get that way on "Leland Van Lew's" wrist while wrestling crocs, BASE jumping and sailing his racing yacht.

Those watches were made "tropical" by some little troll sitting in his kitchen in some town in Genoa, Italy. They change out all the seals and then "cook" the lume in all sorts of appliances like dishwashers and ovens.

Some random dealer in Southern California buys cooked watches from Luigi and then tells his celebrity clientele that this tropical Explorer was worn on Mt. Everest AND The Great Barrier Reef.

Only Thirty Five grand!!!!! Vat a baaaargain!!

It's like a weird twisted version of "Stolen Valor". But, with Submariners.

Archer · Nov 6, 2015

Peemacgee
After discussing the process and involvement in finding a good vintage watch -I told an Indian colleague of mine that my watches were an investment -they simply replied "why don't you just buy gold"
QED

This is why the idea that the collectors here are just buying as an investment is quite laughable.

Watches as a whole are usually pretty shaky investments (although money can be made in fairly rare cases), but even within the watch world there are far better brands to collect for investment purposes than Omega.

I have yet to meet or do work for a watch collector who is purely an investor for financial gain. Certainly there are varying degrees of passion involved but all are pretty much fascinated by the watches themselves, and the potential for financial returns, while not completely ignored, are pretty secondary. But it's more about buying well so you don't lose, rather than making money from what I have seen.

The people I do see playing this world purely for profit in many cases, are the dealers that "restore" the watches to be "ooh shiny" and fob them off on noob collectors. If anything I believe the situation is opposite to what is stated by Watchtinker, and it's the restored watches that are being peddled more for profit than the unrestored watches. As DON has perfectly illustrated in his post above, doing some cosmetic work, even if the end result does not even resemble a watch that was ever really produced, can make you some quick money. If you are interested in pure profit, that game is far easier and less work than trying to find original examples that have been untouched.

Cheers, Al

MSNWatch · Nov 6, 2015

The thing is to treat vintage omegas primarily as an investment and to make money consistently you need a lot of knowledge and to attain that you will need a lot of passion - because you're doing this with the free time you have. And long before you get to the point that you can consistently make money from this, the passion part of it has taken over.

When did restoration become a dirty word?

oddboy

wsfarrell

ulackfocus

Modest_Proposal

flyingout

ulackfocus

ahsposo

Nobel Prize

tpatta

Nobel Prize

DON

kippyk

Peemacgee

Northernman

watchtinker

Davidt

MSNWatch

citizenrich

Archer

MSNWatch

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