What the watch collecting world needs... Independent grading

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Not an easy topic, especially when we're talking vintage wrist watches 👎 but after reading all the (eye opening) topics about photoshopped representations etc... it looks like independent grading might be a must in the future !?

In a nutshell it's very complicated;
Setting up an overall condition grading scale with worldwide recognition would be a start but who is going to do it?
Taking into account:
Exterior of the watch
Full authenticity (case n°), 100% Time-period original parts (glass/hesalite, dial), disclosed repairs & restorations (LASER welding), polishing, correct bracelet...
Interior of the watch
Full authenticity (movement n°), 100% Time-period original parts, disclosed services, ...
Documentation & Provenance
Correct box & papers might be a start (although easier to make up than the hardware itself), full provenance with a (photo documented) story of the owner(s) is far better and might be a "want factor"...
🤔
What do You think ?
Does such a service already exist ? (eBay ?)
It's a small world but is it feasible ?
 
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I’m familiar with this in comic books and I know such things also exist for trading cards. It took years (maybe even a decade) for it to become accepted by everyone in the market. They also fully encase the item in a slab of plastic so that the grade won’t change after being graded.

Would you propose doing the same for watches? Slabbing them and then trading these plastic encased watches as commodities? Seems like it would kill the fun of the hobby. I know that’s exactly what happened to me with comics — people only want to buy/trade “graded” comics anymore.
 
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What do You think ?
Does such a service already exist ? (eBay ?)
It's a small world but is it feasible ?
I think it’s impossible.

Other items that are graded (coins, comics, sports cards) are sealed, so it becomes difficult to alter after grading. Because a watch is a functional object, meant to be worn, any attempt at grading or determining authenticity would only be accurate at the moment of issuance. You would need to get the watch re-graded every time it was serviced or a part changed.

The eBay model works well (but not perfectly) for late model watches which were produced by the thousands and where there are a lot of “experts”. Who is going to issue the grading on a 1920’s Patek Philippe minute repeater where maybe 10 to 20 were made. The factory has such experts already and has an authentication service…for a price. But they don’t grade them.

Sealed and graded items destined to be “safe queens” forever have no appeal to me. To be a successful collector, you need to learn what is beyond the slab.
gatorcpa
 
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The knowledge that such a service would require to do all models for all brands would simply be impossible...
 
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The watch collecting hobby will likely continue to parallel classic automobile collecting in this respect. The “grading” remaining predominantly in the eye of beholder and fellow enthusiasts of that make/model.
 
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@pdxleaf
Thanks for pointing this topic out
.
Indeed a very difficult thing to do, especially for all brands of wrist watches, rather then the top five makes.
Furthermore to do a decent job, it should include the possibility to ship the watch back to the manufacturer for full evaluation in order to get an extract of their archives.
Anyway, it looks like a "business idea" as some private firms start advertising a "special service" to examine Your item, put it fully described in their database, insure it and even produce a digital ledger (blockchain NFT - Non Fungible Token).
It's different for brand new watches as today's "instagram" generation tends to flock towards brands getting a lot of "Likes" and all seem to have the same idea of putting brand new watches with box & papers away as safe queens... it looks like the future might bring up a high availability of first owner original 21st century watches.

I'm old school and rather read a comic book, hold an ancient coin in my hand and wear a vintage watch... but the world is changing.
 
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No to grading, not for me anyway. Grading is fine for someone else.

I collect, accumulate might be the better term, rather than "invest." I invest in order to protect assets and to profit. I collect for the joy and gratification it brings to life. Collecting is the icing on the cake. Perhaps I am seriously unserious about my collecting endeavors.

Numismatics ruined my opinion of grading. I bust coins out of slabs as I acquire them. Coin grading services can't agree with each other and are inconsistent within themselves. Coin grading proved to be a collecting downer for me.

No thanks. I might misjudge a collectible, but I want to do it myself. Grading services are close kin to all the nannying that society has chosen to tolerate for every facet of our lives. We apparently feel the collective need to be taken care of for we can't seem to manage on our own at this point in human history.

One must don his big-boy trousers in order to wade into any collecting field. Grading services are for the timorous lazy. What the collecting world needs are true enthusiasts who are engaged rather than passive.
Edited:
 
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EBay authentication is a nightmare and you want people to send a watch to someone…which would involve removing a case back to do any decent type of job….

Rolex would probably start it and charge a full service fee….

(With a chance of loosing your watch if a generic/counterfeit part is in the movement 😗)
 
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Big-name sellers and auction houses would fight this tooth and nail, since their biggest profits come from putting watches together from parts and making up stories. ::stirthepot::
Edited:
 
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“Let’s see does it look good enough to wear? “

yup

“ok here’s your money”

that’s my grading system
 
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Indeed a very difficult thing to do, especially for all brands of wrist watches, rather then the top five makes.

I'll just use Omega as an example...

Here on OF we have a number of what I would call experts on Omega watches. Some are experts at Speedmasters, some at Seamasters, some at Constellations, some at the 30 mm manual wind movements, some at the earlier caliber movements, etc..

I would say in all confidence that there's no one here who is an expert on all these models together, let alone all the other models Omega makes (Geneve, DeVille, and everything else under the Omega umbrella). So just to find the staff that would be well versed enough to cover only the Omega brand would be a massive undertaking. We are talking about people who understand what correct dials, hands, crown, case backs, bracelet, movements, etc. all go with every single model that Omega makes, and can make judgements on originality of all those parts, if they belong on those watches, and to evaluate their condition, and give a rating. All while v=navigating the saying that is often used here, that you "never say never" when it comes to Omega, because they did some strange things.

This is infinitely more complex that rating sports cards, where you are basically looking for the same defects in all the cards (yes there are nuances, but they pale in comparison to even just 1 brand of watch).

This is just not practical, and in fact any place stating they could do this I would take their ratings with a chunk of salt the size of Mount Everest...
 
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The grading will have to come with an expiration date at which point it has to be re-graded. If grading is meant to be a measure of security for buyers, that the object is what the seller says, then it's no different than a digital security certificate on websites. Those don't last forever and have to be renewed regularly, as no one should assume that a system which was secure 10 years ago is still secure.
 
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Big-name sellers and auction houses would fight this tooth and nail, since their biggest profits come from putting watches together from parts and making up stories. ::stirthepot::

Not to mention the fact it would actually introduce a rational system— as is the case for coins— and hence remove all of the hype, fashion factor, and speculation. I’m sure many collectors would find it boring and they might not even like not being able to brag or argue about their watches being more XXx than everyone else’s.
 
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Perhaps there's a place for hiring an independent expert, as opposed to attempting to grade every item being auctioned. There are currently autograph authenticators, as well as fine art authenticators, why not watch authenticators?

I imagine that anyone considering buying any expensive collectible would do their due diligence, either using their own knowledge or hiring an independent expert appraiser. But they have to be paid, which won't work for a collector looking to score a bargain. Nothing is free. It'd be nice if auction houses were more dependable, but just like the news, you've got to consider the source before believing everything you read, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, it seems that as long as people keep buying watches based off of crappy photos and poor information, the auctioneers/sellers have little incentive to assist an independent appraiser. Also, if someone needs the assistance of an independent expert appraiser, then they aren't not a hobbyist collector.
 
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'independant grading' = 'ebay authenticators'

😗

Not the gold standard. 😲

But you get what you pay for. They're more of a marketing tool for ebay than a service for a buyer.

A decent appraiser would work for the buyer. Think classic cars, home inspectors, fine art.

I'd hire you to evaluate a vintage speedy but don't need to because you'll help for free.😁
 
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The whole thing sounds like a right pain in the arse to me,
I can see it’s appeal to the greedy investment wankers, but who cares about those tosspots?
The sooner they go back the they’re natural habitat ( the futures, and stock market casinos) the better.

The problem is, that it will be dependent upon the knowledge, integrity and bias of the appraiser.
You just have to look at the art world, it would seem that no two “experts” can agree as to the legitimacy of many paintings, now consider that a watch is so much more complex than a painting……..the whole concept is not only a minefield but potentially open for abuse, and also open to what maybe effective ransom by appraisers refusing to give their blessing without getting a sugar bag of money in return!

Life is quite complicated enough thank you very much! I personally don’t need yet another level of clowns jostling for position to get their snouts in the trough.
The only thing that I can see coming from this is more expense being passed on to the buyer, and making our hobby more expensive by increasing it’s appeal to the rapacious greed of the investment wankers.
If you don’t want to take the risk, then don’t buy, bugger off to whence you came from.

::stirthepot::😁
 
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In theory, it would be a nice system, but implementation seems inpossible. But I will say that some people (for example me) are put off by the prospect of buying vintage because I have no way of knowing what's what. I mean, maybe via a reputable dealer, but that's about it. Seems a hopeless situation.
 
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N newfan
In theory, it would be a nice system, but implementation seems inpossible. But I will say that some people (for example me) are put off by the prospect of buying vintage because I have no way of knowing what's what. I mean, maybe via a reputable dealer, but that's about it. Seems a hopeless situation.

One of the benefits of buying from the forums sales section here. Lots of help from others and watches that come from fellow collectors. When you're ready to dip your toe in water, you'll find lots of help for the asking.