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Watch Regulation (balance wheel manipulation) help

UNLucky
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Ok. I've been fighting with 2 Omegas (552 and 565) both of which I have posted here. I just cannot seem to get the regulation part down. I can get the Beat Error Rater to near 0.0, but then it has low amp, or the +/- is +200 or -60. I can post a slew of videos and pictures I've taken (when i get home, at work currently), but I'm looking for any tips, or tricks, or videos/posts you all have used to get better at this process. I have slowly gotten a science down for how to speed it up, or slow it down, but there is zero middle ground. I'm about to take the watch apart (again) rewash everything and ensure I did over (or under) lube anything. It's not magnetized and everything is working seamlessly. New balances also, (that cost a pretty penny for 2 new balance and bridge). I very much am open to suggestions and thoughts.

I'll post pictures tonight.
 
Canuck
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Elaborate on the variation in rate, please. Explain the cleaning processes and cleaning solutions you are using. Are your expectations in line with the capabilities of 50-year old watches?
 
UNLucky
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Canuck Canuck
Elaborate on the variation in rate, please. Explain the cleaning processes and cleaning solutions you are using. Are your expectations in line with the capabilities of 50-year old watches?
The cleaner I'm using is:
https://a.co/d/8yOG8xi
and this is the cleaning machine I'm using with individual mesh containers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/375311685259
So I take the entire watch apart and put the parts in the above cleaner with the cleaning solution for a few minutes and then rinse with the other rinsing solution for a few min. The non moving parts are in an ultrasonic cleaner. I keep the balance wheel and the pallet fork out of the cleaning process and just use some IPA to gently clean each of these. I can get you pictures of the variations I'm seeing tonight.
As for what I'm expecting, just to keep time. I'd love to wear this and have it at least be mostly accurate throughout the day!
 
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rendo
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This may or may not be the causing the issues you are having, but cleaning the pallet fork and the balance wheel in IPA is not a recommended method based on what I read before. Shellac, which holds the impulse jewels and the pallet stones in place, softens in IPA. Here is a video explaining and testing that:


Instead of IPA, it would be safer to use one-dip, or "hairspring dip" that Esslinger sells. Not recommended by our resident watchmakers, so please ignore this.
Edited:
 
UNLucky
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rendo rendo
This may or may not be the causing the issues you are having, but cleaning the pallet fork and the balance wheel in IPA is not a recommended method based on what I read before. Shellac, which holds the impulse jewels and the pallet stones in place, softens in IPA. Here is a video explaining and testing that:


Instead of IPA, it would be safer to use one-dip, or "hairspring dip" that Esslinger sells.
Good to know. I have a few pallet forks I can swap out. By all accounts and looking/comparing the jewels haven't moved, I may have gotten lucky as I don't use a lot. A qtip dipped in IPA. I'll get some one dip.
 
UNLucky
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rendo rendo
This may or may not be the causing the issues you are having, but cleaning the pallet fork and the balance wheel in IPA is not a recommended method based on what I read before. Shellac, which holds the impulse jewels and the pallet stones in place, softens in IPA. Here is a video explaining and testing that:


Instead of IPA, it would be safer to use one-dip, or "hairspring dip" that Esslinger sells.
Also, love that guy, watch a lot of his videos.
 
Archer
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UNLucky UNLucky
Good to know. I have a few pallet forks I can swap out. By all accounts and looking/comparing the jewels haven't moved, I may have gotten lucky as I don't use a lot. A qtip dipped in IPA. I'll get some one dip.
One-Dip is not good for you. None of this stuff really is, but One-Dip in particular is nasty stuff. I have a can of it that I bought in 2009 and I've maybe used it 3 times. I would suggest you get some L&R cleaning solutions - I use "Extra Fine" cleaning solution, and then $3 rinse.
 
rendo
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Archer Archer
One-Dip is not good for you. None of this stuff really is, but One-Dip in particular is nasty stuff. I have a can of it that I bought in 2009 and I've maybe used it 3 times. I would suggest you get some L&R cleaning solutions - I use "Extra Fine" cleaning solution, and then $3 rinse.
Al,

Thanks for sharing your expert opinion. How do you feel about running the balance through the cleaning machine while it's installed on the main plate?
 
Archer
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rendo rendo
Al,

Thanks for sharing your expert opinion. How do you feel about running the balance through the cleaning machine while it's installed on the main plate?
It's standard practice and done all the time. Where the jewels can be removed, remove them, but even if they can't I still run it through the cleaning machine with the balance on the main plate, then disassemble and clean the jewels and balance pivots after.

For the OP - please have a look at these threads as they may help you understand what to look for. As the first thread below says, the devil is in the details when servicing a watch, and unless you are very meticulous you are not going to get good results.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - cleaning' ·
I wanted to pass on some things that I thought may help the people on here that are trying their hand at some watchmaking. I hope to post a few threads on specific topics as time permits, and...
Archer ·

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-oiling-part-1.62310/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - Oiling Part 1' ·
Some time ago I posted some basic tips on cleaning to assist some of the people here who are learning watchmaking. Here is that post for reference...
Archer ·

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-oiling-part-2-the-mainspring-barrel.71246/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - Oiling Part 2 (the mainspring barrel)' ·
This is another installment in a series of watchmaking tips – previous threads can be found here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/#post-696021...
Archer ·

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-oiling-part-3-the-wheel-train.84482/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - Oiling Part 3 (the wheel train)' ·
This is another installment in a series of watchmaking tips – previous threads can be found here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/#post-696021...
Archer ·

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-oiling-part-4-the-escapement.87072/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - Oiling part 4 (the escapement)' ·
This is another installment in a series of watchmaking tips – previous threads can be found here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/
...
Archer ·

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-spotting-wear.81025/ Cover Image
Thread 'Basic watchmaking tips - Spotting wear' ·
This is another installment in a series of watchmaking tips – previous threads can be found here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/#post-696021...
Archer ·

These are the start - read all of these carefully, and if you have questions ask.

Cheers, Al
 
Canuck
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UNLucky UNLucky
Good to know. I have a few pallet forks I can swap out. By all accounts and looking/comparing the jewels haven't moved, I may have gotten lucky as I don't use a lot. A qtip dipped in IPA. I'll get some one dip.
DO NOT use One-Dip for standard cleaning processes. It is useless for anything other than rinsing fresh oil off (for example) hairsprings. It doesn’t touch varnished old oil! You can buy a litre of acetone for the price of One-Dip. It will do the same job, but don’t clean watches in it if the oil has grown stale. When I am cleaning a watch with shock protection, I remove the jewels and clean the watch with the balance wheel in place in the movement. Never had a problem!
 
rendo
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Archer Archer
One-Dip is not good for you.
Canuck Canuck
DO NOT use One-Dip for standard cleaning processes
Thanks for correcting this, I edited my post above to avoid confusing others who might refer to this thread. Using one-dip was recommended on watchfix.com in the cleaning section of their course.
 
UNLucky
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Archer Archer
It's standard practice and done all the time. Where the jewels can be removed, remove them, but even if they can't I still run it through the cleaning machine with the balance on the main plate, then disassemble and clean the jewels and balance pivots after.

For the OP - please have a look at these threads as they may help you understand what to look for. As the first thread below says, the devil is in the details when servicing a watch, and unless you are very meticulous you are not going to get good results.







These are the start - read all of these carefully, and if you have questions ask.

Cheers, Al
I shall watch all these. Also somone previously asked to see the numbers I get so I snapped a few pictures. Like I said I can get the best error down, but the amp is also low, and the +/- will be all over the place. I think I'll take it apart one more time. Be even more meticulous, and try again. I don't mind it, it's what I chose to do! 😂

PXL_20241023_223736997.MP.webp PXL_20241023_223835772.MP.webp PXL_20241023_224139506.MP.webp PXL_20241023_235512455.MP.webp PXL_20241023_223901868.PORTRAIT.webp PXL_20241024_000152034.PORTRAIT.webp
 
Canuck
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With such erratic results on the Timegrapher, you should be able to visually identify problems with the watch. The Timegrapher will tell you when you get it right, but it won’t help you troubleshoot the problem(s)!
 
UNLucky
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Canuck Canuck
With such erratic results on the Timegrapher, you should be able to visually identify problems with the watch. The Timegrapher will tell you when you get it right, but it won’t help you troubleshoot the problem(s)!
I have identified how to slow and speed it up if the timegrapher shows + too much or - too much, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to be methodical about adjusting. Like a good starting point or best practices. I'll watch the above threads and videos and go from there. Appreciate the input!
 
Canuck
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The hairspring is seriously distorted. Waaaaay off centre. My suggestion (since you are unable to see this problem), is that you really need help from someone who can troubleshoot this, and adjust it. What is this seemingly extraneous screw (see arrow) doing there?

IMG_2753.webp
 
UNLucky
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Canuck Canuck
The hairspring is seriously distorted. Waaaaay off centre. My suggestion (since you are unable to see this problem), is that you really need help from someone who can troubleshoot this, and adjust it. What is this seemingly extraneous screw (see arrow) doing there?

IMG_2753.webp
That's the screw that holds the mainspring. And that level is course hairspring adjustment.
https://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=3888233&rid=0

So while I agree I need help, I'm not 100% I don't see the problem. There's 3 points of adjustment. Course adjustment which moves around the balance, the stud carrier which can also move to lengthen and shortened and the fine adjustment. So I manipulate one, let it sit, and go from there to adjust or know what to adjust next. I used the course adjustment all the way to the stud carrier as a starting point. Now am I really missing something or do I have a basic understanding? I haven't had time to watch all the videos and read the articles, ergo why I'm explaining how I understand it.

Screenshot_20241023-174429.webp
 
Canuck
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That screw holds the mainspring? You are unable to discern that the hairspring is seriously distorted? I seriously doubt that the kind of help you need can be found here! Sorry!
 
UNLucky
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Canuck Canuck
That screw holds the mainspring? You are unable to discern that the hairspring is seriously distorted? I seriously doubt that the kind of help you need can be found here! Sorry!
Sorry, misspoke, hairspring. Let me look and read the forums recommended above and the videos, I find it a little insulting you took an obvious typo and decided I am beyond help. But to each their own. Thanks anyway!
 
Canuck
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UNLucky UNLucky
Sorry, misspoke, hairspring. Let me look and read the forums recommended above and the videos, I find it a little insulting you took an obvious typo and decided I am beyond help. But to each their own. Thanks anyway!
That screw is on the regulator gate, on the tail of the regulator. The regulator portion of the two-piece regulator/stud carrier is on the slow side as far as it will go! That, plus the stud carrier is so far over that it is almost interfering with the micrometer adjusting screw of the regulator. The hairspring is badly out of poise, and waaay off centre! Yet you are unable to see these things! You don’t seem to realize that you should stop where you are, and seek help! Truth often hurts!
 
UNLucky
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Canuck Canuck
That screw is on the regulator gate, on the tail of the regulator. The regulator portion of the two-piece regulator/stud carrier is on the slow side as far as it will go! That, plus the stud carrier is so far over that it is almost interfering with the micrometer adjusting screw of the regulator. The hairspring is badly out of poise, and waaay off centre! Yet you are unable to see these things! You don’t seem to realize that you should stop where you are, and seek help! Truth often hurts!
If I stop, I won't learn. So hence, I'll say again, going to read all the articles and videos suggested and keep learning. I appreciate your input.
 
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