UG Tri-compax Dial " evolution, varience, service dial & redial referece guide " READ ENTIRE THREAD

jordn · Nov 10, 2016

Wow, nicely done gentlemen. As an enthusiast and student of dial authentication, I am appreciative of all of the due diligence done here in this thread. I'm still reeling from the results of the election here stateside, but this forum and its members never fail to be a reprieve from the foilings of life. Ok, enough brown-nosing 😁

Not really much I can add except to say that I agree with the conclusion that the dial in question is indeed an original finish example. One thing to note is that this particular dial variation has thicker logo font on top of the aforementioned pointed 6's/9's and lack of dash in "Tri-Compax". 100% of these dials that I have seen have this defining feature. Note the differences between these two:

However I disagree with buba when he says that these are later service dials (unless something was lost in translation and I misunderstood). UG had long since abandoned using these types of dials by the 60's, and according to UG watchmaker manuals found by woodwkr2, watchmakers were instructed to do redials instead of providing service replacements as a cost cutting measure. Asking dial makers to create non-contemporary dials seems like an unlikely expenditure for the manufacture. I suppose it is still possible that these are service dials, but I haven't seen evidence to support that. The examples we've already seen in this thread appear to be honest overall.

bubawatch · Nov 10, 2016

First, third and fourth supply

While the second original '45

bubawatch · Nov 10, 2016

Mlafra
Grazie A.
scrivo sia in inglese che italiano (I'll write both in english as well as in italian).
I quadranti di fornitura non avevano il trattino tra Tri e Compax e i 6 e i 9 "a punta" (the service dials didn't have the dash between "tri" and "compax" and straight 6s and 9s).
Ma i 6 e i 9 "a punta" di per se' non sono ne' sinonimo di ristampa ne' di fornitura ma sono esistiti quadranti originali anni 40 con 6 e 9 "a punta" e trattino fra Tri e Compax, corretto? (But straight 6s and 9s per se are not indication of a reprinted or service dial but indeed existed totally original dials from the 40s with straight 6s and 9s and the dash between Tri and Compax, right?).

Yes

I add that those of "supply are always 32 mm. diameter

Also in relation to small detected imperfections, almost all Universal quadrants will have

You begin to look at the two openings month and day

One is more 'than the other, always, until the' 50s

Sorry for the automatic translation

Grazie

Ciao

A.

Example
mid 40's original

Mlafra · Nov 10, 2016

bubawatch
Yes

I add that those of "supply are always 32 mm. diameter

Also in relation to small detected imperfections, almost all Universal quadrants will have

You begin to look at the two openings month and day

One is more 'than the other, always, until the' 50s

Sorry for the automatic translation

Grazie

Ciao

A.

Example
mid 40's original

Thanks!

Larry S · Nov 10, 2016

Jordn I agree this forum has kept me sane over the last 48 hours! Thanks to all for contributing! This thread is a definitive reference that will help us all.

Diabolik · Nov 10, 2016

Well, I am glad that we've managed to clear that debate up. Time to move on. I chuck my wolly balls back in the knitting basket for now ...

Rman · Nov 10, 2016

To verify, the dials without the tails or dash between tri and compax are "supply" dials--- these were replacement dials made by UG at a later time to repair watches from the 40's?
I have to say this makes sense, a dial forger would surely use a dash if they had already gone through the trouble of producing a perfectly believable dial.

Diabolik · Nov 10, 2016

Rman
To verify, the dials without the tails or dash between tri and compax are "supply" dials--- these were replacement dials made by UG at a later time to repair watches from the 40's?
I have to say this makes sense, a dial forger would surely use a dash if they had already gone through the trouble of producing a perfectly believable dial.

Correct ! 👍 there are exceptions to the rule though ... I need to go through Buba's post and translate it correctly as he also mentions known redials or prints (not produced or licensed (if I can call it that) by UG)

jordn · Nov 10, 2016

bubawatch
Yes

I add that those of "supply are always 32 mm. diameter

Also in relation to small detected imperfections, almost all Universal quadrants will have

You begin to look at the two openings month and day

One is more 'than the other, always, until the' 50s

I don't follow. All cal 481 dials are 32mm as the movement is 14 lignes (31.8mm). And all Tri-Compaxes have uneven month/day apertures to accommodate the respective month/day wheels. I'm not refuting that it could be a service dial, but I'm not hearing what in particular makes it so.

bubawatch · Nov 10, 2016

No, do not say that.
There are references to the cal. 481 with quadrants 34 mm, for example the 12296, and many other.

Meant the size of the openings are not equal, the left one more 'larger than that of the right.
It's just saying that there are also macro irregularities in quadrants, not to mention the graphics.

In Italy, (prego Dino se vuoi tradurre).
Volevo dire che i SOLI quadranti di fornitura sono di 32 mm. di diametro proprio per scartare dalla discussione quelli da 33,5-34 mm (anche dei calibri 287, ma non solo).
Inoltre non è vero che i quadranti del calibro 481 sono tutti da 32mm, ci sono diverse referenze con la carrure debordante attorno alla cassa che arrivano anche a 34 mm.. Ad esempio la ref. 22296.
Per spiegare che i quadranti vanno messi nella cassa, e spesso ci sono i distanziatori.
Riguardo alle aperture dei mesi e giorni, era in riferimento alle irregolarita' dei quadranti UG.
Partendo dalle aperture, quella di destra macroscopicamente piu' grande di quella di sinistra.
Quindi per dirvi che le grafiche possiedono irregolarita'.
Spesso gli allineamenti al sei non sono quasi mai allineati, ecc...., ecc...

Purtroppo la traduzione automatica è un disatro, mi spiace.

Un saluto

A.

jordn · Nov 10, 2016

bubawatch
Inoltre non è vero che i quadranti del calibro 481 sono tutti da 32mm, ci sono diverse referenze con la carrure debordante attorno alla cassa che arrivano anche a 34 mm.. Ad esempio la ref. 22296.

Yes you are right, but those examples with the sub-registers very close together are relatively uncommon and the dial in question is obviously made for a 34mm case 40's Tri-Compax. My skepticism comes from the fact that I have seen the OP's dial in more than a few examples that I deemed to be honest - where the overall condition of the case, dial, hands, match. Meaning, just to be clear, that the watches were born with what you are calling "supply" dial. I could be wrong of course, but I just wanted to know where you were coming from.

bubawatch
I quadranti che ho visto in questa discussione sono di fornitura, quindi significa originali, fatti stampare da Universal Geneve ma in anni successivi (attorno agli anni 60-70)

I have also seen these dials come up for sale in NOS condition, but I had always chalked it up to this particular dial being a popular version in the Universal Geneve repertoire. Perhaps these dials you saw came with papers to qualify what you are saying? Thank you for your thoughts.

bubawatch · Nov 10, 2016

Let's see if I understand

The dials in question came directly from Universal Geneve.
Those in circulation after 2000, were inventories.

Obviously you can not determine at which specimens have been replaced in the 70s and 80s, or the day before yesterday.
These assessments need to be done on the entire watch

The dials in question were taken from my friends from Universal Geneve, I have no record of official documents, but the direct certainty.
Universal now exists only in the service after sale, but no longer have 'nothing.
Only scanned archives.
Deliveries were made to disappear completely and savagely.

Do you think that different parts of the mechanical gauges are finished under the asphalt of the streets of Geneva!!

I hope to be able to explain

Ciao

A.

Diabolik · Nov 10, 2016

@jordn
What buba is trying to explain is that firstly there is no documented evidence of what went on at universal geneve and how these dials (so many of them) got into the public domain. mainly dials were exchanged or obtained through deals between individuals (brown envelope jobs) as before universal geneve closed it's doors all kinds of shenanigans were going on. Someone that would have a better idea of what was going on is "Italo Bonifaccio" author of a very popular book on the company and one of ug's top horologers.

As far as the re-prints go here is the chronology.

1. there are dials that have straight or long tails that were printed in the 40s but were few. they can be identified by the dash between tri and compax and are present on caliber 481 as well as caliber 287 movements (smaller and larger calibers)

2. later ug or ug commissioned printed dials are identified by the lack of the dash between tri and compax and are prints spanning the 60s, 70s and later.

3. The later supply dials were only printed for the 481 movement (not the 287) and were all 32 mm.

All of the above are original UG dials. The earlier dials can be found in approximately 8 different fonts. The later dials are mainly found in the Arabic and dots font as shown by @rolokr at beginning (first dial) on thread (see below).

An example of the original 1940s straight tail font is the following:

Imperfections such as registers of center or print that sometimes lines up (or not) with date window are not necessarily a sign of a non universal geneve printed dial. such variations are common on originals and should not be used as the sole guide to establish originality. The only real way to determine originality of dial by examining font, ink (different inks were used in 40s, 50s and 60s) and by direct comparison to original dials.

Rman · Nov 10, 2016

I've got the earlier Universal Geneve font and inking on my 22258 (not bold), and no dash, but straight tails. Mint case, untouched movement, dead-mint caseback.
A mix of criteria.

Screen Shot 2016-11-10 at 7.43.22 AM.png

jordn · Nov 10, 2016

Diabolik
later ug or ug commissioned printed dials are identified by the lack of the dash between tri and compax and are prints spanning the 60s, 70s and later.

Rman
I've got the earlier Universal Geneve font and inking on my 22258 (not bold), and no dash, but straight tails. Mint case, untouched movement, dead-mint caseback.
A mix of criteria.

These are the two factors that I am trying to reconcile. If these non-dash dials were indeed produced in the 60's and later, is it likely that we see examples such as the one Rman posted above? Buba rightly said - if we fully accept that these dials are later replacements - that it is hard to know when exactly these dials were fitted. However, we should also accept that the 3 non-dash examples we've seen here at least appear to be largely honest watches. Also, is it likely that UG created service dials for watches made 20, 30 years earlier during a time of strife for their manufacture? Again, I have no reason to doubt Buba's sources, but I am having a hard time mitigating what I perceive to be contradictions.

Diabolik · Nov 11, 2016

Rman
I've got the earlier Universal Geneve font and inking on my 22258 (not bold), and no dash, but straight tails. Mint case, untouched movement, dead-mint caseback.
A mix of criteria.

If we accept buba's chronology and Apply his logic, that must be a later 60s dial. Accurately determining age or associating it with another era, is a difficult task. However, considering It is close to 60 years or so old. one would expect it to have significant patina depending on how much it was used, where it lived and other environmental factors (and it seems to meet that criteria) ...

It seems the correct size and font also matches known supply dial fonts. Summarising it seems to meet all the requisites of a later ug or ug commissioned dial fitted on an older case and movement at some time or other ...

@bubawatch - Please comment ...

Italo Bonifaccio's Book on Universal Geneve

bubawatch · Nov 11, 2016

Good morning and thank Dino for the summary and translation
About the last example posted
It should still be a dial supply, replaced in the 60's.

Excuse me if that warch 60-70 years has been completely overhauled, replaced with the movement of inventories, polished always UG?
How do we know?

But I was left out in bold !!!!
The dials were not marked, please 'could also be used for the third-party companies
However, the cliche 'was the' 40s.
Guys, think anyway duable to have precise rules for the entire production consisted Universal is difficult.

Good forum .................

Saluti dall'Italia

A,

Diabolik · Nov 11, 2016

I propose the forum sets up a "hall of fame" or gallery which images of UGs from different eras. Is there sufficient interest and support for that ?

Larry S · Nov 11, 2016

Diabolik
I propose the forum sets up a "hall of fame" or gallery which images of UGs from different eras. Is there sufficient interest and support for that ?

Great idea .... then "we" can debate for days whether each example is correct for The period! ::stirthepot::

😗

(I'll never get any work done then) 🍿

It would be a fantastic reference though.....📖

But might induce some anxiety 😬

nicola1960 · Apr 12, 2018

LouS
Some results from today's session - not clear if the reported price includes commission or no. More to come tomorrow. Discuss....

...
Ug TriCompax Ref 22541, estimated 15-25000CHF. sold for CHF25,000