"Trusted dealer" info.

Bencherman · Aug 18, 2020

Hi,

I'd like to ask if a seller is a "Verified Dealer" on Chrono24 or eBay, and says guaranteed authentic, or 100% authentic, can this be interpreted that all the parts are original, or no dial repainting, etc? I don't want to get a Frankenstein watch. BTW, has anybody heard of Cavalieri in Miami, or Vintage Watch Outlet, or Derek Diers, or Spaziotempovintage from Italy? They all seem to have nice watches for reasonable prices.

Also, are 60s watch brands such as Longines, Hamilton, Zenith, Wittnauer worthwhile?

Thank you in advance for helping out this novice.
Ken/Bencherman

Marsimaxam · Aug 18, 2020

Two things I know are guaranteed in this life are death and taxes. The one saying, which has been repeated often on many Forums, “Buy the seller, not the watch.” are words to live by when buying a watch. It’s nice to have 100% guaranteed seller and verified seller, but I’d rather know the seller or know someone who knows the seller. Dealers and private sellers are not all knowledgeable and make mistakes, trust me, I know from personal experience.

You asked if a variety of brands from the 1960s were worthwhile. What do you mean by “worthwhile”? Are these watches going to appreciate in value, are they well manufactured, will I be able to find parts to maintain, etc? As a collector, for me personally, the first thing I ask myself when I buy a watch is, “does it appeal to me, do I like the way it looks?” Then, “Can I afford it?” So, is there a Zenith, Hamilton, Longines, etc that you really like from that era?
If so, buy it. But, I will tell you that there only a select number of watches that significantly appreciate in value, most are like cars, they lose value as soon as you drive them off the lot.

Brands that have models that increase in value or hold value, in my opinion, are as follows:
Rolex, Vintage Rolex Sport Models, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet especially limited edition, Omega mostly vintage Speedmasters and special editions, Panerai special editions and a few additional brands.

I hope this answers some of your questions and, if not, I’m sure others will post comments that will offer more insight.

Dan S · Aug 18, 2020

No. No, no, yes, no. Yes, sometimes, yes, sometimes.

Bencherman · Aug 18, 2020

Dan S
No. No, no, yes, no. Yes, sometimes, yes, sometimes.

Kinda funny.

STANDY · Aug 18, 2020

If there is $$s involved, People lie Dealers lie a lot.

Run anything by the hive of knowledge first and you will do well.

No need to link, just post the pictures in a New thread And ask nicely.

The more information the better.

PS: Also nothing annoys us more than a “what’s a good price for one of these”
If you know what the dealers price is tell us.
(A dealers price is rarely a good price for anything)

OmegaRody · Aug 18, 2020

Depends what you mean for "worthwhile" .
About Hamilton one thing I am sure they are great value for money.

Marsimaxam · Aug 18, 2020

Dan S
No. No, no, yes, no. Yes, sometimes, yes, sometimes.

I don't think this was the "more insight" I was hoping for, however, it is very direct, brief and to the point.

Bencherman · Aug 18, 2020

Marsimaxam
Two things I know are guaranteed in this life are death and taxes. The one saying, which has been repeated often on many Forums, “Buy the seller, not the watch.” are words to live by when buying a watch. It’s nice to have 100% guaranteed seller and verified seller, but I’d rather know the seller or know someone who knows the seller. Dealers and private sellers are not all knowledgeable and make mistakes, trust me, I know from personal experience.

You asked if a variety of brands from the 1960s were worthwhile. What do you mean by “worthwhile”? Are these watches going to appreciate in value, are they well manufactured, will I be able to find parts to maintain, etc? As a collector, for me personally, the first thing I ask myself when I buy a watch is, “does it appeal to me, do I like the way it looks?” Then, “Can I afford it?” So, is there a Zenith, Hamilton, Longines, etc that you really like from that era?
If so, buy it. But, I will tell you that there only a select number of watches that significantly appreciate in value, most are like cars, they lose value as soon as you drive them off the lot.

Brands that have models that increase in value or hold value, in my opinion, are as follows:
Rolex, Vintage Rolex Sport Models, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet especially limited edition, Omega mostly vintage Speedmasters and special editions, Panerai special editions and a few additional brands.

I hope this answers some of your questions and, if not, I’m sure others will post comments that will offer more insight.

I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful response.

Just in terms of perspective, I recently aborted using my SmartWatch after 5 years, and I purchased a nice new Tudor Black Bay Chronograph as my everyday watch. So I would like to purchase another "work" watch, such as a Seamaster, DeVille, Constellation, or maybe a Longines Jamboree, all from the '60s era (it seems like they cost around $1,000 - not gold). Then, later on, I plan to purchase a "formal" watch, 14k solid. The budget of the first type of watch I mentioned is around $1,000, and to purchase later on, the "formal/14k" watch budget would be around $2 - $3,000. I'd like them to be quality/known brands, such as Omega, IWC, Zenith, Longines, and I'm not sure about some of the other brands (such Wittnauer, Hamilton, etc.). All of these brands have the certain comparable "style" I like. I think we both know the approximate price range of these kinds of watches. See, I would like the watches one day to be passed on to my grandsons, and I'd like the watches to be quality, or at least, nice looking and not fakes.

I'm trying to find out the "good" sellers that some members might have been satisfied with, lest I purchase a "Frankenstein" from a "bad" seller.

Thank you once again for your time and consideration.

Ken/Bencherman

CdnWatchDoc · Aug 18, 2020

For good sellers, check the reviews here. Many many trustworthy members sell watches from their own collection that would meet your work watch and the formal watch.
Spend time, ask questions, and you will learn a lot from the wonderful members here on OF.

Bencherman · Aug 18, 2020

CdnWatchDoc
For good sellers, check the reviews here. Many many trustworthy members sell watches from their own collection that would meet your work watch and the formal watch.
Spend time, ask questions, and you will learn a lot from the wonderful members here on OF.

Thanks very much for your reply. I really appreciate it.
All of the characteristics of vintage watches (dial, polishing, wrong hands, etc.) are mind-boggling, which is the reason for seeking out either reputable dealers or websites that have truly "genuine" or "authentic" vintage watches. In fact, I searched for the NAAWC listed members and am checking out those companies' websites.

Dan S · Aug 18, 2020

Marsimaxam
I don't think this was the "more insight" I was hoping for, however, it is very direct, brief and to the point.

Sorry if my responses were too terse, and I think most people realize that I am always ready to help, but my comments were made that way for a reason. I was being ironic to emphasize by exaggeration that these questions can't be answered simply. Hopefully most people understood that and didn't take offense.

Based on the questions he is asking, and the way he is asking them, I think it's clear to most of us that the OP is not quite far enough along in his collecting journey to fully appreciate detailed and nuanced responses. We were all there at one point, but he has to understand that we can't just give him short and simple answers to the real questions he is asking, i.e. what watches to buy and who to buy them from. It's going to take some time before he is even able to frame questions in ways that can lead to helpful answers. While we would like to help, there's only so much we can do to accelerate the process. He has to learn for himself and there's not an easy shortcut.

As he participates in the forum, and digests more about vintage watches, brands, histories, legacies, styles, movements, technologies, etc., he will be in a better position to appreciate thoughtful and sophisticated opinions about what watches are "worthwhile", and to put those opinions in context. Similarly with buying watches ... the idea that we could just give him the name of a dealer who can be trusted to sell him a good watch reveals a level of naiveté that can't really be addressed properly except through time and experience. Understanding the world of dealers, auctions, eBay, collector-to-collector sales, etc. is not an easy task, and can't be summarized simply. It's complicated, and nuanced, and takes time to appreciate.

So hang in there, OP. Be patient. Read and participate and learn.

Marsimaxam · Aug 18, 2020

Bencherman
I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful response.

Just in terms of perspective, I recently aborted using my SmartWatch after 5 years, and I purchased a nice new Tudor Black Bay Chronograph as my everyday watch. So I would like to purchase another "work" watch, such as a Seamaster, DeVille, Constellation, or maybe a Longines Jamboree, all from the '60s era (it seems like they cost around $1,000 - not gold). Then, later on, I plan to purchase a "formal" watch, 14k solid. The budget of the first type of watch I mentioned is around $1,000, and to purchase later on, the "formal/14k" watch budget would be around $2 - $3,000. I'd like them to be quality/known brands, such as Omega, IWC, Zenith, Longines, and I'm not sure about some of the other brands (such Wittnauer, Hamilton, etc.). All of these brands have the certain comparable "style" I like. I think we both know the approximate price range of these kinds of watches. See, I would like the watches one day to be passed on to my grandsons, and I'd like the watches to be quality, or at least, nice looking and not fakes.

I'm trying to find out the "good" sellers that some members might have been satisfied with, lest I purchase a "Frankenstein" from a "bad" seller.

Thank you once again for your time and consideration.

Ken/Bencherman

Your welcome. Tudor Black Bay is a nice watch.
I was really lucky Ken when I started collecting watches. I was a teenager in the 1970s whose Grandfather loved flea markets and he picked up some vintage, 1930s, 1940s, watches very cheap. When I visited him he'd show me the watches and remove the back case so I could see the mechanical movements... I was hooked. My Dad knew an old jeweler downtown that would sell me vintage watches for the cost of the gold as most were not working. I took them to a watchmaker and had them repaired with my earnings from various odd jobs. Long story short, the 1980s rolled around and the vintage watch craze took flight, I sold most of my collection for a substantial profit and then began upgrading to vintage Rolexes and modern high end watches.... and that is the rest of the story.

I wish you well on your journey.

Bencherman · Aug 18, 2020

I appreciate again your response. BTW, what does OP mean? What does "bump" mean in some members' responses? Maybe there should be a "thread" for the jargon and acronyms used here. Maybe????

It's a shame/humorous the kind of snarky responses some members provide on this forum.

STANDY · Aug 18, 2020

Plenty of nice watches and plenty of Brands.

One bit of advice if your buying to $1000 for this $3000 for that.
I would always prefer a great condition lesser known brand than a average known bigger brand if they are both the same price.

So how about some pictures for the thread

Longines

Zenith

Omega

Even......

Eterna

Lemania

GP Girard Perregaux

Waltham

Marsimaxam · Aug 18, 2020

Dan S
Sorry if my responses were too terse, and I think most people realize that I am always ready to help, but my comments were made that way for a reason. I was being ironic to emphasize by exaggeration that these questions can't be answered simply. Hopefully most people understood that.

Based on the questions he is asking, and the way he is asking them, I think it's clear to most of us that the OP is not quite far enough along in his collecting journey to fully appreciate detailed and nuanced responses. We were all there at one point, but he has to understand that we can't just give him short and simple answers to the real questions he is asking, i.e. what watches to buy and who to buy them from. It's going to take some time before he is even able to frame questions in ways that can lead to helpful answers. While we would like to help, there's only so much we can do to accelerate the process. He has to learn for himself and there's not an easy shortcut.

As he participates in the forum, and digests more about vintage watches, brands, histories, legacies, styles, movements, technologies, etc., he will be in a better position to appreciate thoughtful and sophisticated opinions about what watches are "worthwhile", and to put those opinions in context. Similarly with buying watches ... the idea that we could just give him the name of a dealer who can be trusted to sell him a good watch reveals a level of naiveté that can't really be addressed properly except through time and experience. Understanding the world of dealers, auctions, eBay, collector-to-collector sales, etc. is not an easy task, and can't be summarized simply. It's complicated, and nuanced, and takes time to appreciate.

So hang in there, OP. Be patient. Read and participate and learn.

You are absolutely correct... I wasn't being serious, but, sometimes my humor just doesn't go over. Loved your response.

Dan S · Aug 18, 2020

STANDY
Plenty of nice watches and plenty of Brands.

One bit of advice if your buying to $1000 for this $3000 for that.
I would always prefer a great condition lesser known brand than a average known bigger brand if they are both the same price.

So how about some pictures for the thread

Longines

Zenith

Omega

Even......

Eterna

Lemania

GP Girard Perregaux

Waltham

You had me until the Swiss-made Waltham. 😉

STANDY · Aug 18, 2020

Dan S
You had me until the Swiss-made Waltham. 😉

Waltham International SA Switzerland[edit]
Before the Waltham Watch Company went out of business in 1957, it founded a subsidiary in Switzerland in 1954, Waltham International SA. Waltham International SA retains the right to the Waltham trade name outside of North America, and continues to produce mechanical wrist watches and mechanical pocket watches under the "Waltham" brand.

They are still kicking around at only $8850

Or a touch cheaper

https://www.waltham.ch/mobile/waltham/aeronaval/an01

cristos71 · Aug 19, 2020

I don't really believe in a hard and fast 'trustworthy dealer' list, that's just too simplistic a concept and every litter can have a runt, right?

IMHO most dealers of vintage watches will generally:

Completely ignore or gloss over any/all faults in a watch.

Price said watch as though it was better than the best example that has ever previously come to market.

Find some vague and sometimes ridiculous reason why the watch is so "rare" and therefore so expensive.

Smell the blood of an innocent Noob asking too simplistic starter questions and take advantage accordingly.

I believe it's the responsibility of any buyer of second hand goods to do their own research and due dilligence ( here's a very good place for that ) and to take the words of a professional seller for what they are, but certainly to never unconditionally trust them whether they are seen as "trusted" or not.

wouter van wijk · Aug 19, 2020

As a dealer I would like to comment here and share some of my own thoughts and experiences for what its worth.
I buy and sell vintage pieces (most more than 20 years old) from and to dealers as wel as consumers. It lies in human nature to tell the story the buyer wants to belief. If you are motivated to buy, some people want to get an extra motivation (fairytales included) others want to hear the truth. I like to state as much as possible so that customers can make their own judgemnet. Also don't want to cover up stuff with photoshop. But like selling your house it helps you when someone makes nice pictures.
Nevertheless there's is some really bad behavior. Everywhere. From dealers to consumers and vice versa! I have also bought from reputable dealers pieces that are sold as serviced and then may watchmaker tells me that its completely not the truth. You never have to trust, you only buy trust by buying and building a relationship with people. Since I started buying and selling as a pro from 2018 I have experienced the good the bad and the ugly. I havent had the compete franken experience but there are some really nasty bits. But what would you expect buying a more than 20 year old piece with an unknown service history?
You can expect that it will have some issues. As long as you don't get a written service document there will be a chance of some issues. I prefer to buy my watches with no service history since then I can let my own watchmaker take care of it so that eventually I know what actually happened. Sometimes a watchmaker prefers to not completely overhaul a watch since they then have to change so many parts to get it up to like new condition. You can also over service a watch since every service will mean the screw get turned and it will risk to get some damage. They also have their favorite movements they like to work on. It is an old watch and does it have to run like new?
If you buy a watch with a recent service at a manufacture it will mean that the watch runs as good as possible.This service will be more expensive in the end but it will add value. Some watchmaking departments at brands are good and some are really bad. But even when I let an Omega certified watchmaker service a watch there are many differences between different Omega certified watchmakers. Some like to regulate a watch for weeks and some do it in one week or a day or 2. For dealers time means money. As a dealer you take judgment what kind of service is appropriate for each kind of watch. When I sell a Speedmaster they all get a service by a retired watchmaker who used to be and Omega certified watchmaker. For my average Rolex Datejust I used to let an average watchmaker do the job since its the movement every watchmaker knows since many learn the art of watchmaking working on Rolex movements. Sometimes a rolex service center can be better for higher end pieces. And other times you really don't have to that to avoid risk of removing old parts. When I have a watch with some parts that need to get made by hand I have another specialist. When a watch need to get polished I also have an expert. Long story short, a good dealer has its own pool of experts or sources for different kind of brands and topics.
If you have a good dealer he will stick with you. What I think is my greatest asset is my reputation. I can f**k people up one time, but I prefer to have returning customers who tell to their friend you should buy with that guy, he is one of the good guys.
About pricing. Some of the watches dealers sell are off course priced quite high. They have to pay taxes make an income and pay for expenses like a watchmaker, rent, insurance and also after service!! So to me what is most important to know when you would buy from a dealer is this guy there for the long term or is he there for the short buck. So just look what people say about the after service. And if you ask him if he can give some examples about his after service and what he has done before in case a watch of one of his customers got an issue. The upside from a well known dealer with a high quality kind of stock and reputation is that he will buy and sell pieces which he buys from high end dealers and collectors who take care of their products. So in the long run, quality has its price. You can always hunt for the cheap ones but most of the times you will have to make additional expenses for some hidden issues. And don't forgot in todays crowded market there is not such a thing as a free lunch.

Archer · Aug 19, 2020

wouter van wijk
Sometimes a watchmaker prefers to not completely overhaul a watch since they then have to change so many parts to get it up to like new condition.

If this is reasoning your watchmaker is giving you, you might want to find a new one.

wouter van wijk
You can also over service a watch since every service will mean the screw get turned and it will risk to get some damage.

Same as above - if your watchmaker is damaging things when he services watches, you need to find another watchmaker.

wouter van wijk
They also have their favorite movements they like to work on. It is an old watch and does it have to run like new?

True, watchmakers have movements they like and dislike. If the watchmaker can't get the watch to run within specs...well you probably know my advice by now.

wouter van wijk
Some like to regulate a watch for weeks and some do it in one week or a day or 2. For dealers time means money.

Time is money for watchmakers too, but some do the job more thoroughly. I'm guessing most people would want someone who is doing the job properly, rather than someone who checks it for a day or two, and says it's good enough.

wouter van wijk
I have also bought from reputable dealers pieces that are sold as serviced and then may watchmaker tells me that its completely not the truth.

Indeed, this is a problem.

"Trusted dealer" info.

Bencherman

Marsimaxam

Dan S

Bencherman

STANDY

OmegaRody

Marsimaxam

Bencherman

CdnWatchDoc

Bencherman

Dan S

Marsimaxam

Bencherman

STANDY

Marsimaxam

Dan S

STANDY

cristos71

wouter van wijk

Archer

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