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To be or not to be: Patina or Damage

Archer
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
I personally have a threshold of damage I can live with and actually see as character- case and bracelet scuffing, lume color shift....and that’s about it. Beyond that to me it’s just abuse or neglect. Sure I can call those things patina, but they are damage and decay.

I think the same is true for everyone, but the point of that transition, as I've said is different.

I tend to think of patina as natural aging of something, so the change in colour of luminous material is the obvious example when talking of watches. Or the natural fading of a bezel.

Where some people can't stand this, others take an approach more like the Japanese concept of "wabi-sabi" in that things are often imperfect and perfection is somewhat transient.
 
JwRosenthal
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Archer Archer
I think the same is true for everyone, but the point of that transition, as I've said is different.

I tend to think of patina as natural aging of something, so the change in colour of luminous material is the obvious example when talking of watches. Or the natural fading of a bezel.

Where some people can't stand this, others take an approach more like the Japanese concept of "wabi-sabi" in that things are often imperfect and perfection is somewhat transient.
Totally agreed. And the line also moves depending on rarity. A plain Jane silver Seamaster with some lacquer discoloration or separation would be a pass to many more experienced collectors as near flawless examples can be had easily. Not the same for some of the 40’s military references where a bit of dial damage can be overlooked due to scarcity.
In terms of my personal collecting- I have moved most if not all of my watches that had dial damage (patina) along as I just can’t look at them without seeing damage- it’s not to say someone else wouldn’t find it beautiful.
I think back to the OP’s question (and I have made the point firmly in other threads) I have collected many things in my life (coins, firearms, cameras, vintage stereo equipment) and there has almost always been a firm standard of grading- but watches seem to be the Wild West with a sliding scale of acceptability and subjectivity. As I have always collected with an archivist mentality- the grading has always been a firm standard which is why I get so outraged when I see clearly damaged items being heralded for they appeal.
Safe Queens are the equivalence of freshly minted coins that were immediate preserved and never circulated. Once circulated- they are worthless as reference pieces and are subject to the scales of grading for value thereafter- that’s the cut& dry with almost any other collectible hobby...except watches 🤨
 
Tony C.
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
If not for safe queens, we wouldn’t know what a true factory finish looks like...

Agreed, and this is particularly true of gold cased watches. Which, in turn, is why I couldn't resist buying this one at a Swiss fair a few years ago.

CYM18j.jpg

CYM18b.jpg
 
JwRosenthal
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Tony C. Tony C.
Agreed, and this is particularly true of gold cased watches. Which, in turn, is why I couldn't resist buying this one at a Swiss fair a few years ago.

CYM18j.jpg

CYM18b.jpg
☕
Please do not plonk that watch down on the pile of change and keys on your dresser!
 
SkunkPrince
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Archer Archer
The image in your avatar is of a watch with patina, so this is a bit of an odd post unless you still like "damage" on your watches...
Aging. Perfectly acceptable but you hadn’t yet read my long-winded opinion. 😀
 
lillatroll
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I have 4 watches that I have never worn, two of them I have never even tried on. The reason is because I bought them while living abroad and got them sent to my UK address while I was away. All of them are in outstanding condition 2 NOS and one a speedytuesday that I never got round to trying.
All of them I intended to wear but as time has gone on I have just left them in the safe. My intention is to wear them one day but at the same time I have enough other watches to keep me happy.
 
Stripey
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Archer Archer
It depends if the result is ugly, or intriguing, or downright beautiful. I remember in my previous job as an engineer walking through an old equipment graveyard trying to find a piece of used equipment I needed for a project. I cam across a tank that had been laying out in the elements for years. It had a rust spot on it that was full of amazing colours and patterns, and so I took a photo of it. I had the film developed (this was before digital) and I remember thinking what a great shot it was - no scale so you had no idea what it really was, but it was great. Lost track of the negatives and the print, which I regret, because I wish I still had it.

As you say it's in the eyes of the beholder, and the tipping point between what looks good and what is ugly is different for everyone.
Possibly not much good as a tank, though.
 
Archer
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SkunkPrince SkunkPrince
Aging. Perfectly acceptable but you hadn’t yet read my long-winded opinion. 😀

I had, which was why the post I quoted was so puzzling.

Stripey Stripey
Possibly not much good as a tank, though.

True, though irrelevant to the point that "damage" can be beautiful.
 
SkunkPrince
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Archer Archer
I had, which was why the post I quoted was so puzzling.

Sorry to be confusing. Aging as in yellowed dial lacquer is "patina". That's what lacquer does on things you use.

Splotching because of water intrusion or what-not, that is "damage".
 
Scarecrow Boat
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I have edited the title of this thread as this has taken a fascinating turn 😀
 
vintage hab
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why buy a modern watch to put immediately into a safe? This group (modern safe queens) might be in the minority but I have seen posts on the web of people buying a new Daytona and putting it in a safe. I am pretty sure I saw in the private sales group of this thread, someone with a speedy wanting a very high price, bumping it for a while, and saying something like- I guess I’ll be putting it back in the safe for a while. I’ve looked at so many watches for sale that I can’t remember if that speedy was modern or vintage, but I guess I don’t understand that mindset (yet?). I have seen one speedy ultraman or other LE’s become safe queens and that’s my original question- why buy a watch and put it straight into a safe? At least for me something in a safe won’t bring me joy (and everyone is different) because it’s out of sight out of mind. Why own it? Also, since I wasn’t supposed to quote you 😜 none of this is directed at you but elaborating on my initial questions.
Although I don’t own any, I see modern safe queens mostly as investments. You can still pull them out and enjoy them. Coin or stamp collections don’t get “used” or shown everyday, but collectors take joy in the hunt and the ownership. I’m sure there are watch collectors that feel the same way. We may be thanking them 50 or 100 years from now when we’ll be able to admire them in a museum perhaps. Wish my dad had put a ‘62 Corvette away for me 😀
 
Archer
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SkunkPrince SkunkPrince
Sorry to be confusing. Aging as in yellowed dial lacquer is "patina". That's what lacquer does on things you use.

Splotching because of water intrusion or what-not, that is "damage".

To you. But others would consider any degradation of dial finish for example as "damage" so really it's just personal preferences, nothing more.
 
Stripey
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Archer Archer
True, though irrelevant to the point that "damage" can be beautiful.
Certainly😀
 
Evitzee
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There was an interesting watch that came up for sale last year, a one off Vacheron Constantin minute repeater, retrograde calendar ca. 1940. It sat in an unventilated safe deposit box for 50 years before it resurfaced. The dial was damaged, scratched, discolored, and radium degraded. VC had to decide what to do, so they made a new dial and hands to look exactly like the original using the same techniques. Some people would conclude the original dial and hands just had patina and was ok, others would see it as an unacceptable on such a spectacular specimen. Fortunately the buyer got the original dial and the new one. VC overhauled and restored the movement (Philippe Dufour on the team), and did not polish the case. Personally, I'd never be able to look at the original dial and see anything but a weathered mess, give me the new one any day. But take your pick.
Edited:
 
Vacheron-Constantin-Don-Pancho-dials.jpg vacheron-repeater-don-pancho-original-dial.jpg vacheron-repeater-don-pancho-5.jpg
Archer
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SkunkPrince SkunkPrince
Yup, that's what we discuss, alright!

Yep, so live and let live - no need to replace all references to "patina" with "damage" if we do that. 😉
 
Martin_J_N
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Evitzee Evitzee
There was an interesting watch that came up for sale last year, a one off Vacheron Constantin minute repeater, retrograde calendar ca. 1940. It sat in an unventilated safe deposit box for 50 years before it resurfaced. The dial was damaged, scratched, discolored, and radium degraded. VC had to decide what to do, so they made a new dial and hands to look exactly like the original using the same techniques. Some people would conclude the original dial and hands just had patina and was ok, others would see it as an unacceptable on such a spectacular specimen. Fortunately the buyer got the original dial and the new one. VC overhauled and restored the movement (Philippe Dufour on the team), and did not polish the case. Personally, I'd never be able to look at the original dial and see anything but a weathered mess, give me the new one any day. But take your pick.

Well, this is an easy decision, I would go for the clean dial, if I had seen the watch with the original dial I wouldn't have given the watch a glance but with the new dial its a stunner.
 
SkunkPrince
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Archer Archer
Yep, so live and let live - no need to replace all references to "patina" with "damage" if we do that. 😉

You DID see the big smiley emoticon, right?
 
SkunkPrince
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Evitzee Evitzee
The dial was damaged, scratched, discolored, and radium degraded. VC had to decide what to do, so they made a new dial and hands to look exactly like the original using the same techniques.

That is remarkable and a credit to Vacheron!
 
Scarecrow Boat
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Evitzee Evitzee
The dial was damaged, scratched, discolored, and radium degraded. VC had to decide what to do, so they made a new dial and hands to look exactly like the original using the same techniques.
That really is incredible!
 
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