Timing tolerances - a guide to understand how they work

Posts
1,344
Likes
1,966
It depends. Some movements do use different parts for different quality grades, where some do it through adjustment.

Would the zero parts changed apply to the 1041/1040 and 1001/1002?
 
Posts
219
Likes
207
Thankyou for the summary, even I understood now how to interpret the tolerances
 
Posts
2,008
Likes
3,386
Very clearly explained, thank you for your contributions 😀
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,241
The Paul Peugeot dial is marked "Unbreakable Mainspring". Could this suggest that the metallurgy of the spring is somehow different?

This denotes an alloy spring, rather than a blued steel spring.
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,241
Have you ever tested with and without chronograph engaged to see the difference?

As noted the thing that Omega requires testing is the amplitude drop when the chronograph is turned on. If the amplitude drop is within tolerances, then it is unlikely to have a major impact on the accuracy of the watch.
 
Posts
8,234
Likes
19,415
Now you've got me wondering about the distribution of positions that my watch experiences during a typical day ... and how I could measure that. 😲

now you know the need to record your total time spent at crown up (3H)



😜
 
Posts
5
Likes
21
I purchased my first Omega a Seamaster Co-Axial about ten days ago because I wanted a reliable watch with low tolerances.
As of today I am very pleased with the purchase.

The watch runs 0.5 sec plus on my arm in average and is dead flat on my timegrapher, also the positions show a difference of 1 sec only, if at all.

I did the purchase because I am not happy with my Rado Centrix with an ETA 2824-2 which has been regulated the second time now and decides to change its running pattern from plus to minus overnight suddenly.

Agree that a mechanical watch is not as precise as a Quartz one but the behaviour on the arm in my view should be constant, say plus xx sec per day.
 
Posts
301
Likes
542
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, this is very interesting (and useful) for all us collectors 😉
 
Posts
602
Likes
548
@Archer so what might the impact of the movement being tested inside or outside the case be? I thought I read somewhere that COSC only needed to test the movement outside the case, whereas JLC by contrast make a lot of noise about their "master series" being tested with the movement in the watch?
 
Posts
5
Likes
21
Well if you watch the OMEGA Youtube video about their QC they do it with the finished watches - except the straps of course.
 
Posts
343
Likes
420
Thanks for that explanation, Al.

Is there a single inexpensive timegrapher that can be used for manual calibers 1861 & 861 and auto calibers 1045 and 565?
 
Posts
88
Likes
24
I often see threads where people are questioning if their watch is running outside the manufacturer’s specs. I thought I would post some information to explain how these specs work and why your watch may actually be within specs, but not appear to be.

So when a watch is timed at the factory, it’s done under very controlled conditions on a timing machine. The duration of these tests is usually very short, so only over a matter of a few minutes depending on the specific watch in question. The watch is typically timed with two different states of wind on the mainspring - the first is fully wound and the second is 24 hours after being fully wound.

For now I’ll just talk about the fully wound state to keep things simple. If the watch is not a chronometer, it will typically be tested over just 3 positions, and those are dial up (CH), crown down (9H), and crown left (6H). If the watch is COSC rated, it will be tested over 5 positions, so the three above plus dial down (FH) and crown up (3H). If the watch is a METAS caliber, then it will have all those 5 plus crown right (12H) tested.

Each individual test lasts maybe a minute, and between each test the watch is left to stabilize for a few seconds. Each position will have a rate in seconds fast or slow per day, balance amplitude, and beat error. So taking a watch like the Speedmaster Pro with a Cal. 1861, let’s put some rate numbers for each of the 3 readings:

Dial up = +7.5 s/d
Crown down = –7.5 s/d
Crown left = 0 s/d

So to calculate the average daily rate we add up the 3 numbers and divide by 3, and that gives us a result of 0 seconds gain or loss - great! 👍

But there is another number we must calculate from these three readings, and that is the Delta, which is the difference between the fastest and slowest position. So here that is the difference between –7.5 and +7.5, so 15 seconds. Omega’s tolerances for this watch are that the Delta number must be no greater than 15 seconds, so on that measure this watch passes. The tolerances for the average daily rate are from –1 to +11 seconds per day, and since the average here is 0, this also meets the requirements Omega set out.

So if you buy this imaginary Speedmaster and get it home, and it runs at –5 seconds per day, then is it faulty?

Keep in mind that the average daily rate calculation above assumes that each position is given equal weight in the calculation, so if you were to wear this watch so that it spends 8 hours in the dial up position, 8 hours in the crown down position, and 8 hours is the crown left position, then it theoretically would average out to 0 seconds gain or loss over 24 hours. But no one wears watches like this, so in real life wearing conditions the average rate number can be skewed towards the position that the watch spends the most time in. For example, if you stand a good part of the day with your left wrist down at your side, then crown down will be the dominant position in the weighted average, and this could lead to the watch running at –5 seconds over the 24 hours, even though it’s running completely within Omegas tolerances.

Also keep in mind that any of these tests that use 3, 5, or even 6 positions don’t reflect the positions the watch will actually be in, as there are a virtually infinite number of variations with how your wrist can be positioned during the day that don’t match these exact test positions.

So there’s another thing to touch on, and that is isochronism - this is what affect the state of wind has on timekeeping. So as the mainspring winds down, the torque from the spring that is delivered to the balance is reduced and this can cause the timekeeping to drift. Omega measures this on the Speedmaster at 24 hours after the watch is fully wound, and they allow the Delta number to increase from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. So now our imaginary Speedmaster could have the following rates 24 hours after being wound:

Dial up = +10 s/d
Crown down = –10 s/d
Crown left = 0 s/d

So again the average is zero, but the two positions that deviate from zero are spread even further apart. Since Omega doesn’t have a tolerance for the average rate at 24 hours after full wind, but they clearly acknowledge that the timekeeping will likely get worse, this is another reason why this imaginary Speedmaster could be running outside of the range for the average rate, but still be within Omega’s tolerances.

Note that although I’m using a Speedmaster in this example to keep things simple, this same process applies to all Omega’s watches. Of course the tolerances are different, but the key take away here is that if the specs for average rate are from –1 to +11, or –1 to +6, or from 0 to +5, that doesn’t mean that every position the watch is in will run between those numbers. If your watch happens to spend time in a position that is outside the range for the average, then it could very well run outside the range on your wrist, and yet still be within Omega’s tolerances.

If you have any questions on this, please let me know.

Cheers, Al
Thank you so much for the description, it made this subject super clear. Kudos!
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,241
@Archer so what might the impact of the movement being tested inside or outside the case be? I thought I read somewhere that COSC only needed to test the movement outside the case, whereas JLC by contrast make a lot of noise about their "master series" being tested with the movement in the watch?

I don't expect the timekeeping to change when I case the watch...
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,241
Thanks for that explanation, Al.

Is there a single inexpensive timegrapher that can be used for manual calibers 1861 & 861 and auto calibers 1045 and 565?

As long as you know the proper lift angles, there are a number of cheap timing machines on the market. The thing that they can't do properly is measure the balance amplitudes on the co-axial escapements.

They also have other issues with room noise, drift in the time base, etc., but for hobbyist use they are fine.