Time Capsule

rcs914 · Jul 7, 2016

TNTwatch
Seems the kit used to belong to Mr. Vargas. Just found his post mentioning kit 047. Does not say anything about official docs.

https://www.facebook.com/MilusWatches/posts/10151785310696696

Kind of tempted to comment on this asking him about his source for a manufacture date. Also the information about Milus losing their records seems to be convenient if they actually lost it in the 1950s and not later. It seems pretty unequivocal that the watch dates from the 1960s.

redpcar · Jul 7, 2016

Not to throw fuel on the fire but the incabloc balance wasn't popular until the '50s although invented in the mid '30s. Could be an ETA 1080 (my first guess at a glance) also still not available until the '50s. Also the fact that it is a center second...........
Add everything up: design, layout, calendar feature, movement - points to a watch from the mid '60s......... in my opinion.

gatorcpa · Jul 7, 2016

Milus is claiming that the original "Snow Star" watches were from the 1940's. You can see their claim here:

http://www.milus.com/?route=watches&gents&cid=8

If their records were destroyed, I don't know how they would know this. I find it hard to even find a non-military vintage Snow Star online other than the few shown here.

The gold coins in the few kits shown here were all pretty standard bullion pieces, still available by the thousands today. They could have just as well been included in a survival kit from the 1940's or the 1960's.

Based on the fact that the movement used in the existing kit watches seem not to have even been in production during the WWI era, I'd have to say that the Milus watch is vintage 1960's. Sorry Milus.

IMO, these particular kits with the Milus are Vietnam era. That's not to say that similar survival kits didn't exist during WWII. They just would have had a different watch, that's all. Coins and other items were likely the same.

Even James Bond had one!

http://www.007museum.com/Q-Branch.htm

gatorcpa

TNTwatch · Jul 7, 2016

redpcar
Not to throw fuel on the fire but the incabloc balance wasn't popular until the '50s although invented in the mid '30s. Could be an ETA 1080 (my first guess at a glance) also still not available until the '50s. Also the fact that it is a center second...........
Add everything up: design, layout, calendar feature, movement - points to a watch from the mid '60s......... in my opinion.

That is not an incabloc, or an ETA 1080, but it's an ETA 2408 which has two advanced features that didn't exist before the 1960s: movable stud carrier and direct centre second. The instant date is also a later feature as well.

Mr.H
Doe's anyone have a concise history of the ETA 2408's?

Here's the contemporary automatic counterpart of the 2408: http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=ETA_2472

redpcar · Jul 7, 2016

by Incabloc, I meant shock protected, sorry if there are any terms mixed. Balance jewel seems to be floating under spring protection.

JimInOz · Jul 7, 2016

I suspect the story of the subject barter watch as being from WW2 is the result of "Chinese whispers".

That watch design is not from the 1940s for many reasons stated, and the WW2 factor has only been put out by journalists.

I do believe that there were two types of EEKs, I don't believe that they are from WW2 era. More likely Cold War era for the coins, Vietnam era for the watch as noted below.

rcs914
I think Korea is still too early, unfortunately. Active hostilities ended in 1953. US troops were in Vietnam as of 1963. Due to the small number of these kits that were evidently produced, I would think that perhaps they were more for use by the crews of the Air America "We are not in Laos" planes.

A most interesting thread. I'd like to see a definitive conclusion.

gatorcpa · Jul 7, 2016

JimInOz
More likely Cold War era for the coins

Those coins were minted anywhere from the 1870's to the 1930's. Most countries simply stopped minting gold coins for general circulation during the Great Depression.

However, millions were kept in reserve as gold bullion by central banks around the world. Some banks still have them.
gatorcpa

watchknut · Jul 7, 2016

Gotta love bullshit militaria.

Is it me, or does all of the crap in that kit look like it came out of a candy machine?

bling-king-crane-redemption-game-coastal-amusements.jpg

TNTwatch · Jul 7, 2016

JimInOz
the WW2 factor has only been put out by journalists

It appears to be the "historian" who purported to have introduced Milus to these "1942 E&E kits".

TNTwatch · Jul 7, 2016

JimInOz
I do believe that there were two types of EEKs, I don't believe that they are from WW2 era. More likely Cold War era for the coins, Vietnam era for the watch as noted below

Jim, interestingly that you're here, have you heard/known of such kits for the RAAF during the VN era?

Mr.H · Jul 7, 2016

TNTwatch
It appears to be the "historian" who purported to have introduced Milus to these "1942 E&E kits".

Yes it's odd I never really questioned it at the time, I picked the set up at auction about 5 years ago knowing nothing of the Milus Heritage kits, I put a post on a FB group & was contacted by JV & Milus ..... I knew the watch looked late in design although know of other centre seconds from the same date & just fed into all the stories & put it away in the safe as I knew I was never going to wear it

Found one more set in the US Naval History & Heritage Command Washington DC
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...n_Barter_Kit_South_East_Asia_(5355238650).jpg

Also found reference to the ETA 2450 series (the 2408 being the manual date model) as early as the 1950's but not the 40's

Regards
Mr.H

JimInOz · Jul 7, 2016

TNTwatch
Jim, interestingly that you're here, have you heard/known of such kits for the RAAF during the VN era?

No, the standard kits were based on survival and included signal mirror, matches, fishing line/hooks, whistle, compass, pencil, paper etc.
I can't remember all of the contents but when the time expired ones had to be disposed of I remember the lollies (candy) like barley sugar still tasted fine.

I was closely associated with the RAAF escape and survival systems for some time and never heard a whisper of anything like that.

JimInOz · Jul 7, 2016

gatorcpa
Those coins were minted anywhere from the 1870's to the 1930's. Most countries simply stopped minting gold coins for general circulation during the Great Depression.

However, millions were kept in reserve as gold bullion by central banks around the world. Some banks still have them.
gatorcpa

Sorry, I should have said the coins were for use in the Cold War era (well, probably, just my guess).

rcs914 · Jul 8, 2016

Well, I poked the bear yesterday and commented on that post of John Vargas' to the Milus Facebook page. He replied this morning and has since deleted his reply. I had posted the following:

"Perhaps Vietnam era? That watch was not made in the 1940s - it's definitely from the mid 1960s."

to which he replied, and I am paraphrasing a bit since I didn't do a screen capture:

"when you are a professional historian maybe you will post things that aren't unfounded and uninformed opinion" - that's the gist, but not really exactly what he said. The "professional historian" part was definitely in there, and he was basically stating that I had no idea what I was talking about.

MSNWatch · Jul 8, 2016

Either dishonest or a fool. ("He that doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know is a fool, shun him")

Mr.H · Jul 8, 2016

MSNWatch
Either dishonest or a fool. ("He that doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know is a fool, shun him")

But J.Vargas seems far from dishonest or being a fool, just take a look at his Allexperts.com rating & the time he gives for free to answer questions ..
http://www.allexperts.com/expert.cgi?m=12&catID=669&expID=85531
You don't usually find replies so in depth & knowledgeable ..

Regards
Mr.H

TNTwatch · Jul 8, 2016

Ad hominem attack is not that professional. A true historian would also cite the sources for his assertion. He may be helpful and knowledgeable in his field of interest, but he doesn't sound like an academic so what he says is most likely not always true.

MSNWatch · Jul 8, 2016

Mr.H
But J.Vargas seems far from dishonest or being a fool, just take a look at his Allexperts.com rating & the time he gives for free to answer questions ..
http://www.allexperts.com/expert.cgi?m=12&catID=669&expID=85531
You don't usually find replies so in depth & knowledgeable ..

Regards
Mr.H

His reply which he deleted doesn't speak well of him - the error he made with the Milus issue is big and makes one wonder why such a "celebrated and distinguished" military historian would make such an obvious mistake.

gatorcpa · Jul 8, 2016

rcs914
The "professional historian" part was definitely in there, and he was basically stating that I had no idea what I was talking about.

I took a quick look at Mr. Vargas' answers on the allexperts site. He very much knows the history of specific units and their insignia, uniforms, names, dates, places and all sorts of other trivia. But not a single question or answer related to a watch.

Just because one is a professional historian, doesn't make them an professional horologist. On the other hand, I don't think I would have attacked him directly like that on a public website without reference to some of the evidence posted here and elsewhere so he could see for himself.

Understand that this is all part of a Milus marketing campaign for the new Snow Star watch. Mr. Vargas is being paid as a "professional historian" to lend credibility to a story that seems to me to be somewhat of a bubbameinster (old wives' tale) to begin with. However, I'm pretty sure that similar survival kits were used by military pilots in later wars where the inclusion of this model of watch makes a whole lot more sense.

This is like someone telling me that they remember watching the bombing of Pearl Harbor on television. Did television exist in 1941? Yes. Were there any public broadcasts from Hawaii at that time? I wouldn't think so, but I'm not expert enough to prove it definitively.

Could they be mistaken and what they really saw was the bombing of North Vietnam on television 25 years later? Far more likely, but who am I to rob someone of their memories.
gatorcpa

Foo2rama · Jul 8, 2016

My feeling is that he is biased with skin in the game somewhere. That can easily obscure someone's views.

The fact he removed it afterwards might show he looked up the movement and realized he is wrong. As he might have skin in the game most likely from Milus he might be in a legal quandary.

Time Capsule

rcs914

redpcar

gatorcpa

TNTwatch

redpcar

JimInOz

gatorcpa

watchknut

TNTwatch

TNTwatch

Mr.H

JimInOz

JimInOz

rcs914

MSNWatch

Mr.H

TNTwatch

MSNWatch

gatorcpa

Foo2rama

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