Thoughts on these PAF Rail/Seamasters

fizz · Sep 17, 2017

micampe
This dial is fake. At least the previous ones are only relumed, they are ok at the right price.

You should study these a lot more carefully, unless you are interested in the military connection you don’t need to look for PAF issued ones.

You are looking for one of the most faked models around and you don’t sound very familiar with it, you are going to get burned.

I admit I have not studied these models, which is usually my (and every informed buyers) typical approach. I have never bought a vintage Omega but have been oscillating between either the vintage Seamaster/Ranchero/Railmasters or the dressier 2505/2506 (30T2 calibre) variety. With regards to the models specifically posted here, the military connection is less important than the PAF connection due to the fact that I am originally from Pakistan and am fascinated by the history of Omega having provided these watches to the airforce there. I had first heard/read about these years ago when I started collecting but found the prices prohibitive at the time so stopped looking around for them.

In the last couple of years, I've fallen in love with vintage watches in general but been able to acquire mostly Rolex's so far (5513, 1675, 16030) and the only Omega's I own (the watches that originally got me into horology) are Speedy and PO. I am in no hurry but happened to find these models recently so perhaps got a bit too excited without doing my homework.

fizz · Sep 17, 2017

I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse, but there might be some good that might come out of all this after all.

The seller, who had said during our initial conversation, that he had a bunch of PAF models that he bought years ago, not just the 2 that he showed me earlier, sent me pictures of another different PAF Seamaster model today. In my continuing quest for learning more, to me, these seem better than the first two, possibly not even redialed or relumed. I can't say any more than that, especially the caseback and bracelet, so posting here for review and feedback.

micampe · Sep 17, 2017

Assuming the movement number matches the case back this one looks better. I don’t know how to tell if the engraving is original. Only the crown is replaced, but that’s a minor issue and correct ones can be found. The bracelet is valuable as well. What’s the asking price?

gemini4 · Sep 17, 2017

Humm. So that's where 7 end links go. Learn something new everyday. ::psy::

fizz · Sep 17, 2017

micampe
Assuming the movement number matches the case back this one looks better. I don’t know how to tell if the engraving is original. Only the crown is replaced, but that’s a minor issue and correct ones can be found. The bracelet is valuable as well. What’s the asking price?

When we spoke about it a couple of days, he said most of these were priced at Euro 10k...I don't know if this comes with the omega archive extract but I will update this thread once I hear back with a response to both these questions.

watchyouwant · Sep 17, 2017

too expensive for rancheros. way to expensive..... kind regards. achim

gemini4 · Sep 18, 2017

watchyouwant
too expensive for rancheros. way to expensive..... kind regards. achim

Ranchero at a Railmaster price.

fizz · Sep 18, 2017

So update from seller:

- Price is Euro 10k. This is not negotiable and the price is the same with or without bracelet.
- Extract of archive provided, matches serial no on caseback and movement.
- Picture of movement provided, matches serial no on caseback and extract of the archive.
- Caseback says 2996 but extract from archive refers to it as CK2914. How can that be?
- Size without crown is 36.5 mm (according to seller), but aren't the railmasters supposed to be 38mm?

Other Questions:

- Why does everyone over here refer to this as a Ranchero when the extract of the archive refers to it as CK 2914 (i.e. a railmaster).
- Were Ranchero's also delivered to PAF?
- Why is this so complicated?

fizz · Sep 18, 2017

Also, dates on all the extracts I've seen from this particular seller have the same date i.e. 15th September 2016. Is that possible?

micampe · Sep 18, 2017

fizz
- Caseback says 2996 but extract from archive refers to it as CK2914. How can that be?

That watch is a 2996 Ranchero. Either there was a mistake with the extract, or the movement was taken from a 2914 and the case back engraving is fake.

- Size without crown is 36.5 mm (according to seller), but aren't the railmasters supposed to be 38mm?

2914 Railmaster are 38mm, 2996 Ranchero are 36mm.

- Why does everyone over here refer to this as a Ranchero when the extract of the archive refers to it as CK 2914 (i.e. a railmaster).

Because this is a Ranchero.

- Why is this so complicated?

I did warn you.

Joe K. · Sep 18, 2017

The case back is a ref 2996 - that is a Ranchero reference. Given the information from the extract, the movement should be in a 2914. I think you have a movement that was fitted into a 2996 case and has the numbers added to the back. If this is the case, then I would stay away from the watch unless it was cheap and then I would buy at parts value. The current pricing is way over that.

fizz · Sep 18, 2017

Thanks everyone. It helps explain the inconsistencies.

However (and time for a drum roll), when I asked the seller about the mismatch of caseback reference (2996) to watch reference on the extract of arcthive (CK 2914), he said, and I quote:

There is an Omega extract mistake. I have asked for an amended extract. But both watches are 100% original. I have written to them today

.

Time to move on and perhaps cure the itch by looking at the Railmaster 1957 reissue, which was made precisely for people like me or, gasp, still pursue this?

Dero13 · Sep 18, 2017

fizz
Thanks everyone. It helps explain the inconsistencies.

However (and time for a drum roll), when I asked the seller about the mismatch of caseback reference (2996) to watch reference on the extract of arcthive (CK 2914), he said, and I quote:

.

Time to move on and perhaps cure the itch by looking at the Railmaster 1957 reissue, which was made precisely for people like me or, gasp, still pursue this?

I would not pursue this further. It is a Ranchero and at that price you could do much better.

sohail · Sep 18, 2017

Hi , The PAF ordered limited number of ranchero types than the railmaster/seamaster. The movements were the same in 2996 and 2914, notice the PAF engraved marking on the 2996 movement which is the same as on 2914. The 2996 movement serial numbers are in same sequence as in 2914s. The omega archives cannot differentiate between the movements installed in 2996 and 2914 as the movement sequence is the same. The watch in question is a genuine PAF issued omega seamaster. Sometime back I also wrote an article on these ranchero type seamaster in the same forum.

sohail · Sep 18, 2017

https://omegaforums.net/threads/omega-paf-seamaster-2996.25928/

Bumper · Sep 19, 2017

There are pics of 2 different watch movements here. Bottom watch matches the extract.

fizz · Sep 22, 2017

I've also found 2 other Ranchero's and your opinions would help with these (one of which is a Seamaster in a Ranchero case 2990-1)

Here is the first one. 267 movement and serial no points to 59/60.

fizz · Sep 22, 2017

And this is the other one. Also 267 and dated to 58 as per the serial no.

Price seems high but this has broad arrow hands which looks lovely. I also like the white better than black but the patina on the black is killer.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=559201

fizz · Sep 23, 2017

Anyone? Especially the one with the pics posted...

Thoughts on these PAF Rail/Seamasters

fizz

fizz

micampe

gemini4

fizz

watchyouwant

gemini4

fizz

fizz

micampe

Joe K.

fizz

Dero13

sohail

sohail

Bumper

fizz

fizz

fizz

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