Advice, guidance or thoughts on this PAF Seamaster Ranchero

fizz · May 12, 2020

I've ventured into the PAF Seamaster territory before out of my personal interest in them but always backed out for some reason or another.

I've managed to find another one out there in the wild and the dealer selling this claims to have done his due diligence in determining the authenticity of this piece (essentially a Ranchero CK2996-1-SC) and stands by its originality (dial, crown, movement, PAF delivered, glowing markers under UV light, etc.). The watch has also apparently been serviced by a military watch specialist named John Senior (not aware of who he is).

I think the dial is pretty clean for something this uncommon (except for the very tiny mark at 12) and the movement numbers etc. seem to be in the acceptable 17xxx122 range but I can't be sure so sharing this for others to comment on.

The asking price is around 8.5k USD and despite my insisting on it, there is no Omega Extract of the Archives which the dealers insist is not a shield from a franken dial/watch anyway. He could apply for one if I am genuinely interested in pursuing this (takes a few weeks anyway), but I haven't persisted because I need more guidance on this.

Please let me know your thoughts on whether I should take the discussion forward and please let me know if anyone has any questions.

Mark020 · May 12, 2020

Strange that you try to sell a watch like this without proof

Faz · May 12, 2020

For a piece like this, your statement below answers many questions including yours. The fact that the seller hasn't requested an extract of the archives before putting the watch on the market at that asking price, is a huge red flag and a hard pass...How can he be sure of its authenticity? The colour of his urine in the morning? Seriously...

"The asking price is around 8.5k USD and despite my insisting on it, there is no Omega Extract of the Archives which the dealers insist is not a shield from a franken dial/watch anyway. He could apply for one if I am genuinely interested in pursuing this (takes a few weeks anyway), but I haven't persisted because I need more guidance on this."

rcs914 · May 12, 2020

Maybe not a shield from a franken dial/watch, but should be a pretty solid shield against a swapped movement.

fizz · May 12, 2020

I don't think he said he won't apply for one. I said he would (and he might have, it's been a few days since we spoke) but reminded me how it worked (I already knew) saying it doesn't guarantee complete authenticity. In his own words (below):

"If you understand how the omega archives work all they can say is that the movement number matches their records and a watch with that movement was supplied to the PAF but if a clever forger has used a genuine movement number then it will come back as looking correct from Omega. It doesn’t mean that the watch wasn’t made up using different parts or a genuine movement number that may have been used in multiple fakes/franken watches. I will look at multiple things on any watch I buy including engraving styles, fonts, positions of markings and engravings."

Assuming the extract came out confirming that the movement number is genuine and said movement/watch was supplied to PAF in the 60's, do the pictures raise any potential alarm bells or suspicions?

fizz · May 12, 2020

So an update, and I just checked, he has applied for the extract and it's been 2 weeks now so he should be getting the details anytime soon.

Which brings me back to my last question and your thoughts and expertise on this:

Assuming the extract came out confirming that the movement number is genuine and said movement/watch was supplied to PAF in the 60's, do the pictures raise any potential alarm bells or suspicions?

watchyouwant · May 12, 2020

Your call. If you need a PAF watch , save a bit more and wait for a Railmaster. Then you have an iconic and interesting watch. Kind regards. Achim

fizz · May 13, 2020

Hi, I understand that the railmaster is the more desirable PAF Seamaster, but it's also way out of my budget in terms of range and Ranchero's are more in the affordable range.

Any thoughts on the dial and case? It seems to my untrained eye rather legitimate.

Davidt · May 13, 2020

I'm struggling to see how your considering $8.5k for a Ranchero yet saying a railmaster is out of your budget.

In basic terms yes a railmaster is slightly more expensive, but you're better being patient and buying a good value Railmaster than paying top dollar for a Ranchero imo

fizz · May 13, 2020

Thanks for your reply David. I've been looking (on and off) at PAF Railmaster's for nearly 3 years now (I have old threads here under my name asking for advice since then) and have yet to come across anything less than 10k at least (there are at least 2 sellers I know offering it at the moment, one of whom has it on his site for 3 years now!!!).

What I want to make clear is that a Ranchero isn't a compromise for me, as everyone seems to be indicating. It isn't less desirable than a railmaster and for my small wrists, a 36mm is an excellent dimension, even if the general opinion is that the railmaster is more iconic.

I also like how the Ranchero looks (PAF or otherwise) and keep in mind, the price I've stated (8.5k) is the unnegotiated list price. I would never buy for that amount. But I don't want to waste the sellers time or mine in meaningless banter if there is a problem with the watch.

At this point, I am only interested in whether the condition/authenticity/features of the watch/dial, etc. are questionable or not. To me, it seems like an honest example, and with the Extract from the archives expected imminently, this might be worth pursuing.

Do the others here think so too or does it raise any alarm bells immediately?

Davidt · May 13, 2020

I'm not at all saying a Ranchero is less desireable, but the market does value them less, which is why I'd rather pay market for a Railmaster than over market for a Ranchero.

I guess what I'm saying is I think the watch you're considering is expensive.

fizz · May 13, 2020

Understood and you make complete sense. But because Ranchero's are less desirable, they are also (from what I can tell) more of a bargain and possibly easier to snag than a Railmaster. I've sort of given up on Railmaster's and I am tired of waiting - the good ones are expensive, the afforable ones have major compromise (condition of dial, visible damage etc.).

Anyway, I don't mean to debate because this is a very personal perspective and I expect people to keep bringing this point up repeatedly.

I'll say this again, I have an opportunity to pursue this Ranchero (price discussions notwithstanding) if it seems to not ring any obvious alarm bells, so would appreciate any guidance from those who are more well informed.

TexOmega · May 13, 2020

Methinks you explain/justify/defend too much with much evidence lacking/outstanding.

padders · May 13, 2020

Unless you have a personal connection with the PAF or Pakistan as an entity I wouldn't personally pay a large premium for a watch with such a connection. Particularly one with such cloudy bona fides.

If it is a Ranchero you want, here is a seemingly nice one, though I haven't studied it in detail so dont take this as a recommendation, just an observation that it is rather cheaper than the supposedly PAF one:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/omega-ranchero-ref-ck-2990-1.111170/

fizz · May 13, 2020

I do have an extremely personal connection with Pakistan, hence my interest. I am determined to get specifically a PAF Omega. No other variation will do no matter how pristine the condition, how desirable the model, and how great the seller.

watchyouwant · May 13, 2020

ok, no problem. looks ok to me; excerpt and absolute must with these easy to fake watches. if all correct, $ 6000 max. kind regards. achim ( I would not even pay $ 4000 for these....., but that is only me. have had all military Railmasters and many PAF watches over the last 30 years. you should get in contact with a well known pakistani dealer in london....)

fizz · May 15, 2020

Just to bring this drama to a logical conclusion, the seller wrote back saying Omega could not provide an Extract for the serial no he provided.

Make of that what you will.

Flip · Jun 13, 2020

Currently in auction ....

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...paign=auction-alert&utm_content=lot-view-link

Flip · Jun 13, 2020

Auction description....

Omega Seamaster 'Ranchero' Military issue stainless steel gentleman's wristwatch for the Pakistan Air Force, ref. 2996 1 SC, circa 1960, serial no. 17527xxx, black dial with Arabic quarter numerals, dauphine baton markers and centre seconds, cal. 285 17 jewel movement stamped 'P.A.F', the case with issue markings 'P.A.F 17 527 xxx', Omega bracelet ref. 1036, 36mm
-
Condition Report:
-
Movement - currently functioning.
Dial - showing signs and patina consistent of the period - see images.
Glass - light marks.
Hands - surface oxidised wear.
Case - surface marks and scratches consistent of the period - see images for guidance.
Crown -.adjusts correctly.
Bracelet -visible surface marks and scratches.
-
Condition reports are provided for general guidance only. Please view images and further information can be obtained upon request. Gardiner Houlgate do not guarantee the working order or time accuracy of any lots. Due to the opening of the wristwatch case backs, it is recommended watches are re-sealed by professional technicians to ensure any stated water resistance is retained

Advice, guidance or thoughts on this PAF Seamaster Ranchero

fizz

Mark020

Faz

rcs914

fizz

fizz

watchyouwant

fizz

Davidt

fizz

Davidt

fizz

TexOmega

padders

fizz

watchyouwant

fizz

Flip

Flip

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