Swiss Customs Targetting Baselworld Attendees

gostang9 · Mar 24, 2019

Pointing out how laws are less than ideal is one thing, being deep in an industry and being ignorant is another.

I don’t write for a premiere online watch site, I don’t own significant watches that should be photographed with new releases for comparison, and I am not someone that participates in the single biggest annual global watch event. Yet, I am well aware that traveling across any international border with more than 1 expensive luxury item opens me up to a need for declaration of assets and possible duties owed.

There is a major annual “International Auto Show” across the border from me in Detroit Michigan. This is where major automakers show off new cars that will be coming to the market (a bit like auto equivalent of Baselworld?). Imagine a car enthusiast were to stay in Windsor overnight and travel to the show during the day (highly likely, much like the author did). Now imagine this enthusiast had a nice collection of vintage cars worth anywhere from $10k to $60k each. Now imagine that somehow he has a truck they can transport cars, and he shows up at the border with 5 expensive cars on the truck. The border agent would ask “any goods to declare?” and the enthusiast says “nope”. The agent looks at the trailer and says “but what about all those expensive cars?”. Enthusiast responds, “oh, those. Yeah, I have a small collection and am bringing them to photograph next to some of the new ones”. Border agent says “you should have declared them!”. Would everyone here still think the enthusiast was so innocent?

Just because watches are very small and easy to conceal, does not change the significant value they represent. In many situations we might expect to get through unnoticed, but going to Baselworld? Seriously? An internationally famous event dedicated to these expensive items? And we think border agents are completely naive to the huge event going on in their city? Proof they even very smart people can sometimes behave in a way that seems not so smart

SuperHero · Mar 24, 2019

Spacefruit
As countries become more strapped for cash, they start to put pressure on revenue producing departments.

This can lead to unbalanced outcomes and unintended consequences.

Thailand, one of the worlds most important centres for jewellery and gems, has a couple of trade shows each year. These exhibitions should be absolutely massive, attracting the huge number of local dealers and all the worlds traders and buyers. Instead they can be rather sad, empty affairs, filling only half the large hall at the exhibition centre, and often the corridors are deserted between the booths.

The trouble is, that several years ago the Thai customs started to target all the arriving dealers and confiscating all their stones. True, they were following the law. But as a result, the Thai shows are among the least well attended, in the world, and dwarfed by the Hong Kong shows that happen a week after.

So Thailand loses business and reputation, simply because of lack of government leadership, by not having laws that reflect the world we live in. (As an aside, they have reacted well in the past, by removing all barriers to the import of computer equipment, so Thailand is a hub of connectivity and user ability and even development).

In an attempt to bring back the business to the Thai shows, the government decided to offer an period of freedom from import charges for two weeks before and after the shows. Customs themselves were not too happy about that.

This made little difference as the policy was not well publicized nor uniformly enforced, confusing traders more. They were just too frightened to bring goods in, and instead waited a week and took them to HK. It was just so much easier not to go to a country with Import procedures.

All this should be read and then consider the success of Hong Kong. A free port - no restrictions on movement of goods. This now has so many gem shows per year I cannot attend even half of them regularly.

Governments of Europe, (Or do I mean THE government of Europe) is crushing trade among smaller businesses or individuals.

I am beginning to think it is a deliberate aim.

This customs situation in Europe is outdated and not fit for purpose. The fact that Swiss Customs were " Just doing their job" highlights the problem. Sniffing out watches owned by individuals with blurred purpose, but ultimately unlikely to be avoiding import taxes, (Or if they do, is it really that much and taxes will have already been collected on the sale and production of that watch).

The Just doing their job argument does not make it right, as history has taught us.

With supervision, monitoring, CCTV and data storage becoming cheaper and cheaper, with AI and its unforgiving algorithms being introduced slowly so we accept this invasive and choking, we will wake up soon to find we cant go anywhere, buy anything or do anything without being naked to our superiors who will take a percentage of everything we do, so as to erode our assets as much as possible.

Most of you will read this and go, " Oh that would be awful!"

But then you will go back to scanning your watches and try to forget about it, because there is nothing we can do about it.

We need a new method of wealth transmission.

Well this is interesting....

Being on this side of the pond (Canada), the only county I travel to frequently is the US. I imagine living in Europe, Asia or Africa where multiple countries border on each other could surprise an uniformed traveller. Thanks for everyone’s experiences....super helpful and informative!

Tony C. · Mar 24, 2019

Spacefruit
As countries become more strapped for cash, they start to put pressure on revenue producing departments.

This can lead to unbalanced outcomes and unintended consequences.

Bingo.

The crackdown noted by the by the OP is certainly not confined to Switzerland. At recent Munich fairs, some cars have been stopped on their way from the airport to the venue(!), and receipts and serial numbers were being sought. This has more to do with rooting out stolen watches, so the focus is apparently on newer models. Nevertheless, as the market has exploded (in value) over the past decade, it is clear that the authorities are taking notice.

With regards to the Swiss, I was stopped at customs for the first time recently. I had a few watches, and had to assign values and place a deposit with a credit card. On exiting, I brought the paperwork, showed the watches, minus two that I had sold, received my deposit back and paid only the VAT on the sales. The officers were very professional, and, under the circumstances, reasonable in their actions.

Governments of Europe, (Or do I mean THE government of Europe) is crushing trade among smaller businesses or individuals.

Partly, but also pushing more and more small business underground, which dovetails with another important, related issue: the insidious war on cash.

I believe strongly that people around the world are making a huge mistake by passively allowing this to happen. If or when cash is outlawed, you can kiss virtually all of your privacy goodbye. I'm not advocating for tax evasion, but anyone who thinks that it's Ok for governments to be able to trace every transaction is, to put it kindly, missing the forest for the trees.

Archer · Mar 24, 2019

snake.doctor
Nope, he was going there to take pictures, not selling watches.

But he could have just as easily have been taking those watches to sell to other collectors. If you are bringing several watches to a watch show, then don't be surprised that customs officials consider those watches as commercial goods. The bottom line is that as Standy has pointed out, there is a way to avoid all this by getting a carnet. By not doing so the person in question put themselves in a situation that they could have easily avoided.

ATWG · Mar 24, 2019

I learned my lesson the hard way entering the US in 2015 with goods and about $8k in cash which belonged to me. After 4 hours of excruciating process, I was released without penalty, but was told US customs can confiscate any sum of cash and/or goods at their discretion without returning it. I was very lucky as I had a very understanding customs officer, and my reasoning checked during the process. The officer explained this is not revenue driven, rather tracing money laundering schemes.

My general rule is when traveling outside of US with more than $10k, I always declare. And do the same at the destination. This makes the return trip that much easier and pain free.

The Swiss story just takes it to a new level.

snake.doctor · Mar 24, 2019

Archer
But he could have just as easily have been taking those watches to sell to other collectors. If you are bringing several watches to a watch show, then don't be surprised that customs officials consider those watches as commercial goods. The bottom line is that as Standy has pointed out, there is a way to avoid all this by getting a carnet. By not doing so the person in question put themselves in a situation that they could have easily avoided.

Sorry but where is the concept of innocent until proven guilty there ?

I assume you are a man Archer, so if you possess a penis, does it mean the police should take you in for investigation for a potential rape which has not happened yet, but you could do in the future ? Same thing with your car. Can a police officer issue you speed limit ticket because you possess a car which can go above the speed limit and you "could" break the law ?

If the guy says to the customs officer he's attending a watch fair with his personal watches he wants to carry along with him, there is absolutely no right for him to fine him for something he hasn't done. It's not commercial goods he's bringing to a watch fair for sale, until the authority can prove it.

By accepting those methods, you are softly sleeping to a world where the government can come and take all your possession based on suspicion.

Sorry people, I don't want to offend anyone here, but I have principle. And justice is one of them. I'm not accepting that a customs officer charge you VAT and fine you for something you haven't done, just because he is in a position to interpret the law the way he wants.

I understand completely your argument about having the carnet to avoid problem, yeah I know it's an easy way to avoid troubles. The thing is, here I'm not discussing how to avoid troubles with the customs, I'm talking about principles and laws when it comes to government officials.

For me this situation there is just pure theft from the government and I will never approve that.

gatorcpa · Mar 24, 2019

snake.doctor
Sorry but where is the concept of innocent until proven guilty there ?

ATWG
The officer explained this is not revenue driven, rather tracing money laundering schemes.

One thing I always tell clients who are not US citizens or permanent residents is that it is the position of the US government that all foreigners are considered to be drug dealers or money launderers until proven otherwise.

I’m sure this is true in many other countries.

@snake.doctor, your arguments blur the lines between criminal and civil laws.

The concept of “innocent until proven guilty” only exists in criminal law. It doesn’t exist in tax or customs laws because these are generally civil, not criminal, matters.
gatorcpa

Archer · Mar 24, 2019

snake.doctor
Sorry but where is the concept of innocent until proven guilty there ?

You are missing (or ignoring) the fact that he failed to declare goods that he was importing into Switzerland. And if you believe that all laws are based on being innocent until proven guilty, then you are very naïve.

Trust me border crossing problems are top of mind for many where I live, due to the legalization of cannabis here in Canada and the very backwards stance of the US government with regards to this drug. Even if you are in jail you have more rights than when you are crossing an international border, and the sooner people realize and accept that, the less chance they will have of getting caught like this individual did. Border officials have a tremendous amount of leeway in what they can decide or not based on the situation, and that power is based in law (for the record my nephew is a CBSA agent at the Detroit/Windsor border so I have some insight into this).

snake.doctor
By accepting those methods, you are softly sleeping to a world where the government can come and take all your possession based on suspicion.

I'm not the one who's sleeping mate. I'm well aware of what is needed when crossing borders, and I don't treat an international border as simply a toll booth as I have seen many others do in my lifetime. Your hyperbole notwithstanding, I understand you think this is theft, and a certain type of individual will likely think of it this way. But as much as they can be a pain, also keep in mind that the actions taken at border crossings serve a larger purpose with regards to that country's economy, and for tracking organized crime.

We can certainly agree to disagree on this...

snake.doctor · Mar 24, 2019

Archer
You are missing (or ignoring) the fact that he failed to declare goods that he was importing into Switzerland. And if you believe that all laws are based on being innocent until proven guilty, then you are very naïve.

Trust me border crossing problems are top of mind for many where I live, due to the legalization of cannabis here in Canada and the very backwards stance of the US government with regards to this drug. Even if you are in jail you have more rights than when you are crossing an international border, and the sooner people realize and accept that, the less chance they will have of getting caught like this individual did. Border officials have a tremendous amount of leeway in what they can decide or not based on the situation, and that power is based in law (for the record my nephew is a CBSA agent at the Detroit/Windsor border so I have some insight into this).

I'm not the one who's sleeping mate. I'm well aware of what is needed when crossing borders, and I don't treat an international border as simply a toll booth as I have seen many others do in my lifetime. Your hyperbole notwithstanding, I understand you think this is theft, and a certain type of individual will likely think of it this way. But as much as they can be a pain, also keep in mind that the actions taken at border crossings serve a larger purpose with regards to that country's economy, and for tracking organized crime.

We can certainly agree to disagree on this...

Actually I think we both agree but on two different topics 😁

It's not about being naïve. Here I think we are discussion a case which is mixing principles-based laws (laws are supposed to be representative of what is acceptable or not by a social group) and practical reality.

I'm well aware that a customs officer have a lot of power, and what I'm saying about that, is that this is the exact reason you need strict laws and rules, in order not to have people who can just make your life miserable because they don't like your face.

The fact that he didn't declare his watches is based on the thinking that his watches are personal belongings, and not commercial goods he was importing into the country in order to sell them, and in this casing giving the government the right to put rightful taxes on the goods.
He must have the benefit of the doubt until the customs officer has a real suspicion based on evidences he is actually lying.

The blurred line is there. There is not a strict rule which defines where starts and stops the concept of personal belongings you can bring into the country without having to declare them. The 300$ limit is based on something which is classed as "commercial goods" already.

We are not talking about a third-world country where you find corruption and no legal procedures. I have spent time all around the world working in the medical field to be well aware of the trouble you can get by entering a country with prescribed medication and not being jailed for drug traffic because you just refuse to pay the officer his bakchich.

This is why I think it's important to have something well stated in the law regarding this kind of issues. In the meantime, I'm not the guy who will travel with an arm full of Rolexes and claiming these are only personal belongings.

What I see here in Europe for some time now, is that the different governments are trying to do their best to get money wherever they can, and especially from people who are working hard and making money. This is why I think it's important to protect the people, and also the travelers, against that.

Working against money laundering, and the different traffics is one thing, respecting someone and his possessions is another.

Tony C. · Mar 24, 2019

snake.doctor
The fact that he didn't declare his watches is based on the thinking that his watches are personal belongings, and not commercial goods he was importing into the country in order to sell them, and in this casing giving the government the right to put rightful taxes on the goods.
He must have the benefit of the doubt until the customs officer has a real suspicion based on evidences he is actually lying.

No, even if the watches were personal belongings, the traveller should technically have had a Carnet, and he was at fault for assuming otherwise. Without that document, there actually was good cause for Customs agents to be suspicious.

Only hardened watch collectors or dealers would likely carry multiple watches across borders, and it is not reasonable to expect that customs agents should be able to easily distinguish between the two.

Note that I'm a collector, and would be happy never to be stopped. But I am also generally sympathetic to the job that Customs agents are tasked with, and how they carry it out.

gatorcpa · Mar 24, 2019

snake.doctor
This is why I think it's important to have something well stated in the law regarding this kind of issues.

It is clear that Switzerland’s law is well stated, as is the law in most countries. How individual agents choose to enforce the law is another matter entirely.

It seems this particular watch journalist is the one who was naive or ignorant of the Swiss customs laws.

Back in the 1970’s when I was high school, our class took trips to Mexico and Canada. At that time you did not even need a passport to travel to those countries. We were strongly advised to register our band instruments and cameras with US Customs if they were made outside the US, and were given the forms to do so.

This is nothing new, although the strict enforcement by Switzerland might be.
gatorcpa

MRC · Mar 24, 2019

Archer
and I don't treat an international border as simply a toll booth as I have seen many others do in my lifetime.

This, I think, is the problem. We have all become accustomed to crossing country borders on the freeway/autobahn/autoroute at the speed limit (or a touch below for safety) and moving around freely. In the 1980s I was in Detroit with some guys from our customer talking about where to go out in the evening. "How about Windsor?" came up. "Sorry guys, you can get back into the USA based on whatever paper you have in your wallet and your accents. With my accent I will need my passport and that is in Boston." Good job we had only just started on the beers or I might be in Windsor still.

I always declare what I've got, even a jar of Marmite. And thoroughly clean my walking boots before going to New Zealand.

FlyingSnoopy · Mar 24, 2019

Switzerland has became stricter in boarder controls lately...

MRC · Mar 24, 2019

F FlyingSnoopy
Switzerland has became stricter in boarder controls lately...

Zurich airport was the first time I ever saw troops with modern weapons held high looking very closely at travelers. And that was 1976. Don't think I've been back since. Going to Hungary years later in a car I avoided Switzerland both ways.

Funny thing though, in a very small town in Austria touring around looking for a hotel for the night I was pulled over by a policeman who must have been so very, very bored that British number plates would be the highlight of the week (year?). I could understand his German, but he couldn't read my English "Papier bitte!" so why bother?

MTROIS · Mar 24, 2019

Swiss customs are known for being sticklers and following blindly (and shall I say stupidly?) rules!
I think this is example is especially of very poor taste and could come hurt them badly in the long term (see example above of Thailand vs. Hong Kong).

STANDY · Mar 24, 2019

MTROIS
Swiss customs are known for being sticklers and following blindly (and shall I say stupidly?) rules!
I think this is example is especially of very poor taste and could come hurt them badly in the long term (see example above of Thailand vs. Hong Kong).

It’s a Customs officers job to apply rules, it’s up to a traveler to follow rules.

Make no mistake if the OP was not going to a watch fair with watches this thread would not exist

We need the Customs officer to join this thread otherwise we are just getting one side of the story 😗

MRC · Mar 24, 2019

STANDY
We need the Customs officer to join this thread otherwise we are just getting one side of the story 😗

"More than my job's worth init?" I'm not not sure my French or German lessons a lot of years ago would have included translating that.

Wait! I have my grandmother's English - German phrasebook from 1880s, let me try....

I may be a while.

müslüm · Mar 24, 2019

Guys, we will soon have fun at UK customs 😀

MTROIS · Mar 24, 2019

I don't need the customs officer's version as I feel that Michael's description of what happened seems fair and balanced.

Many who have commented here have pointed to the lack of clarity of the texts when it comes to describing watches as a personal item or not.

Moreover, it has also been established that it is up to the officer's appreciation as we have seen that other people who were checked by customs in Zurich were not held to the same standard, so that in itself shows the problem right there.

One more thing going against Baselworld, period.

STANDY
It’s a Customs officers job to apply rules, it’s up to a traveler to follow rules.

Make no mistake if the OP was not going to a watch fair with watches this thread would not exist

We need the Customs officer to join this thread otherwise we are just getting one side of the story 😗

Archer · Mar 24, 2019

MTROIS
Moreover, it has also been established that it is up to the officer's appreciation as we have seen that other people who were checked by customs in Zurich were not held to the same standard, so that in itself shows the problem right there.

I’m not sure what problem this shows. You can try to argue with the police officer who pulls you over for speeding that everyone else was speeding too, so since he didn’t stop everyone you shouldn’t get a ticket. Let us know how that works out...😀

Swiss Customs Targetting Baselworld Attendees

gostang9

SuperHero

Tony C.

Archer

ATWG

snake.doctor

gatorcpa

Archer

snake.doctor

Tony C.

gatorcpa

MRC

FlyingSnoopy

MRC

MTROIS

STANDY

MRC

müslüm

MTROIS

Archer

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