Support independent Watchmakers!

P PatrickJ

Sometimes we have to invest money and re educate just to survive. Life in the last 20 years has become more demanding whatever you do.

ChrisN

Out of interest, I'm not sure where the £40k extra tools comes from but from what Al says above and a post I read elsewhere, this seems to be more like £5k for a shop with all the usual tools. Surely for Watchmakers who still want to service Swatch watches, it would make sense to do this? You could amortize this over a year by just increasing the typical service cost by £10? Possibly less, as I suspect direct prices are less from Omega than Cousins (A PZ5000 crystal is US$50 from Cousins as an example but probably $30 direct?).

I realise this doesn't solve the problem for everyone (not me or any other amateur) but it does for some. Or did someone cost this out and it really is £40k as that is a huge investment? Does that number include additional Group specific training? I appreciate it could be more if you're doing specific training for coaxials (for example) or if you need more kit for those.

Just interested to see what a real figure might be.

Regards, Chris

Horlogerie

I would like to see all watchmakers achieve some type of professional recognition, and belong to one of the major organizations, we should police ourselves and stand together for many reasons, parts embargo notwithstanding

gatorcpa

It used to be that way, at least here in Florida. There is a local watchmaker that actually posts a copy of his state issued watchmaking license on his website.

http://mirowatchrepair.com/content/photos/cert3.jpg

I guess at that time the states regulated watchmakers the same way they regulate CPA's. They had to pass state tests, have required professional education at regular intervals, and pay a licensing fee.

With the advent of quartz watches in the 1980's, these rules faded away. They were replaced by non-profit certification organizations like AWCI and also by requirements of the watch companies that are being discussed here.

gatorcpa

Archer

It "faded away" because it was found to be unconstitutional. The US Supreme Court has determined that licensing occupations is valid when it is in the interest of public safety, but in cases where it is not then licensing would "unconstitutionally deprive one of his right to pursue a lawful vocation."

[url]http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/the-de-licensing-of-occupations-in-the-united-states-6.htm#_edn34[/URL]
See footnote 38

gatorcpa

I don't doubt for a second that you are correct.

However, I'm not sure where one draws the line between "the interest of public safety" and "unconstitutionally deprive one of his right to pursue a lawful vocation". As a CPA, I have to be licensed by the state. So do attorneys, cosmetologists and dozens of other professions which provide services to the general public, not all of which require college degrees. But that's why we pay the Supreme Court the big bucks.

I had always thought that the certification went away because it was costing the state a small fortune to administer the testing and continuing education at a time that the demand for watchmakers was at its lowest point.
gatorcpa

PS - Just found this interesting article, and it turns out we are both correct.

ChrisN

Not in UK, unfortunately, at least not for Engineers. I was at an event a few years ago and saw a guy in his dayglo jacket with something along the lines of "Movements Engineer" written in large letters on his back. His job was to direct people across the road.

I don't believe there is any protection on the use of Electrician or Watchmaker either in UK.

Cheers, Chris

Northernman

But again I have also had properly licensed guys do shitty work....

Northernman

Having supervised technical work performed in the US I was, at the time, shocked to see the lack of professionalism from persons claiming to be electricians. We basically had to let them do their work (as required by state law and unions) and then redo the whole thing as soon as we had the vessel out in international waters.
When I later learned that any guy in the US (at lest in Virginia) with a box of tools and a helmet could claim to be an electrician it became just too clear what should be avoided in the future.

BlackTalon

Generally in the States the companies are licensed, but not individual workers. In areas where a trade is still largely union, there may be union designations for the level of the specific worker/ technician. If any electrical work was not up to code the licensed company who employed the electricians should have been on the hook to make things right. Of course this is based on the building trades; I'm not sure how the rules change for naval construction.

Archer

And this is partly my point. Certification, while it may be a good thing generally, is a guarantee of exactly nothing when it comes to how well any work being done will be performed. Because you pass a test in a classroom doesn't mean you will work to that standard all the time.

In my former life I recall once having a rather heated conversation with an older structural engineer who was involved in a plant addition I was having constructed - he was using a code book from 1967, so his designs did not reflect how current structural codes were being used (Limit States Design). He was a P. Eng. (Professional Engineer, which is a protected title here in Ontario) but clearly the work he was doing was not up to current codes - we adopted LSD in our building codes in the mid-90's...

Often the certifying bodies are the cause of some problems, since rather than discipline their members when they have done something wrong, they see their role as protecting them so that the profession does not suffer when someone screws up. We have seen some of this behavior here in Canada.

Here for trades we have a bit of a hybrid system. If I want to run my own electrical wiring in my house (which I have done many times) I can do that, and I can call the electrical inspector in for rough and finished inspections, but I can't make any connections in the actual panel. I would need a licensed electrician for that, or at least that was the case the last time I checked as I haven't done any of this work for years. Same for natural gas piping - I can run the pipe but had to have a licensed gas fitter do the final connections again.

Cheers, Al

ChrisN

I was not aware that you could do these exams at a distance I've looked at the two Distance Learning Courses (DLC) from the BHI, they appear to relate as follows to watches:

Technician grade course – aiming towards being a technician servicing quartz watches

Intermediate/Final grade course – aiming towards being a Watchmaker servicing mechanical watches for which interchangeable parts are available (high relevance to this discussion!)