Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

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Mr. H

I divide my time between London, Oxford and NYC. Please let me know if I can ever buy you that drink!

Best, Hurley

Hi Hurley

Nice watch, they were covered on the OF Zenith forum, might be a old unremembered post but was bumped earlier this year after another S.58 showed up on eBay

https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-mysterious-zenith-s-58.5532/

Lol I also got a raking over my first post but was all good fun & hopefully made for a interesting read & thanks for the offer of a pint will take you up on it some time (long old story on how I got the Mr monika)

Regards
Mr.H
 
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If any readers haven't figured by now that Hurley is essentially a troll, this should wake them up. The end of the very first sentence in the ad reads: Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving

Yet he claims that "It doesn't talk about divers at all". Presumably none of his lectures are given in French.
This is not exactly fair. The firs sentence does say it supports 150 meter diving but Hurley does make a point that it also states it is ideal for Military officers, engineers and I think sportsmen that appreciate a classic form and xxxx. it does not however list scuba divers, or divers. (outside of what I think i read as sportsmen, unless it says something else. So Hurley's point is not exactly trolling.

can someone post a higher definition version of that add please? I am very curious about what else it says
 
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Not trolling at all! My whole original point was that this watch was designed for military officers and now I am merely pointing out that Zenith's own advertisement -- incredibly -- says that, in fact, military officers are one of a small group of target audiences. Moreover, the advert does NOT list divers among the target audiences; it merely states that the watch is rated to a depth of 150m at the top of the ad in a separate section.

Anyway, I'm going to smile about this for a long time. Tony beat me up over dozens of posts around an issue that his own star witness has resolved against him. Too good too be true.

OK. So I'll go back to where I started, except I'll preface it by saying: According to Zenith's own contemporaneous advertising literature, the S.58 was specifically designed to appeal to military officers. I suggest that it accomplished this goal by associating the watch with the S-58 marine helicopter, the pilots of which were already wearing Zenith chronographs supplied by Cairelli. This all makes perfect sense, and indeed is very much in line with Zenith's longterm advertising strategy of selling its watches by evoking its historical connection to avionics and pilot watches. Whether Cairelli, as some Zenith experts have long conjectured, was directly involved in the design and distribution of the S.58 watch (which would readily account for its atypical design features, including its unusual casebook inscription reminiscent of military engravings), can best be proved by obtaining archive extracts of first generation S.58 watches. In light of the target audiences for the S.58 identified by Zenith, there is no reason to believe that its marketing goals would be advanced in any way by associating the watch, sold as it was over a period of many years, with 1958.

I can't thank Tony enough for supplying a crucial piece of evidence in the quest to resolve this fascinating mystery. 😀

Next job (apart from waiting for and reporting on the archive extracts) is to investigate Zenith's claim on its website that it was still making aviation instruments until 1960. Was Sikorsky one of its customers in the mid to late 1950s?

All the best, Hurley

This is not exactly fair. The firs sentence does say it supports 150 meter diving but Hurley does make a point that it also states it is ideal for Military officers, engineers and I think sportsmen that appreciate a classic form and xxxx. it does not however list scuba divers, or divers. (outside of what I think i read as sportsmen, unless it says something else. So Hurley's point is not exactly trolling.

can someone post a higher definition version of that add please? I am very curious about what else it says
Edited:
 
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This is not exactly fair. The firs sentence does say it supports 150 meter diving but Hurley does make a point that it also states it is ideal for Military officers, engineers and I think sportsmen that appreciate a classic form and xxxx. it does not however list scuba divers, or divers. (outside of what I think i read as sportsmen, unless it says something else. So Hurley's point is not exactly trolling.

"Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving" isn't a reference to scuba diving or divers? Please. It was also the first reference, which is obviously meaningful.

As for the other uses, did anyone ever say it was marketed exclusively as a diver? That's a rhetorical question.
 
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Not exactly trolling! Are you kidding me? My whole original point was that this watch was designed for military officers and now I point out that Zenith's own advertisement -- incredibly -- says that, in fact, that is one of a small group of target audiences and it is "not exactly trolling."
Hurley...that was a complement on your defense!. But do you, buddy. Do you.
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"Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving" isn't a reference to scuba diving or divers? Please. It was also the first reference, which is obviously meaningful.

As for the other uses, did anyone ever say it was marketed exclusively as a diver? That's a rhetorical question.
Only in as much as the Aqua Terra is, for example. To me, in context, this reads as an elegant watch with extreme durability. Funny because as I said before that would be the ideal watch to market to navy officers. Little did I know it was written right there. ( Along with the rest: engineers, etc)

Ironically, before I start becoming a target for just not taking sides and enjoying your discussions ( name calling aside) I do think that profile fits the geophysical year spirit. Like the explorer....but sea instead of mountain.

That really was the aqua Terra of its time....and isn't the aqua Terra a seamaster? Bond thinks so.
 
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I'm not going to comment on the whole dive vs. helicopter vs. airline pilots' watch debate. Hopefully the extract from Zenith will shed some light on that.

There are some things about the bezel on that watch that seem very strange to me:

1. If you Google up "Zenith S.58", there are what looks to be a couple of dozen examples of similar watches online. Not one of them has a bezel that comes close to resembling Hurley's example.

2. The bezel on the watch seems to be very heavily worn. The fit of the insert on the left side of the dial seems odd. There are marks on the inside of the bezel which do not seem to be part of the insert.

3. What's up with the "dual" hashmark at the 12 o'clock position? You would think that a watch used by a professional or military officer would either have a white hash or a luminous one, but not both. If you adjust the bezel so that the luminous is straight up, all the other marks are going to be slightly off.

As far as the 1958 issue goes, it was not unheard of for manufacturers to name models after the year introduced and keep that part of the name beyond the initial year of issue. The Eterna Centenaire 61 was one of those. I'm sure there are others.

Just my 2 cents worth.
gatorcpa

PS - The fish in the dive ad is a clown loach. Funny little fellow. They love to sleep lying on their sides. If you're not observant, you might think they've passed on, but they are very much alive.
 
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I finally got around to reading the tiny French text in Tony's clownfish (actually they might be loaches: a classic bottom-feeder) advertisement.

It doesn't talk about divers at all, but it says it is the perfect watch for, are you ready for it, military officers.....

(It also mentions engineers and scientists.)

Dumb, dumber, dumbest.

All the best, Hurley


Edit I miss one paragraph 😀
 
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Sorry! I understand that. And thank you. I think I could have phrased my post differently (and I have now done so). Again, sorry. Best, Hurley

Hurley...that was a complement on your defense buddy. But do you buddy, do you.
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At least we all agree on what kind of fish it is!

As for the bezel; I agree -- it is bizarre, indeed. All of the points you make, I have noted above also.

As for the fit, it is perfect:



Moreover, it conforms to the contours of the original in every respect. Under 25x magnification, the grain structure of the material, which appears to be bakelite (but which will be confirmed on Monday or Tuesday of next week) is identical to the grain structure of my standard S.58 bezel.

Here is a nice comparison shot with a stock bezel/insert from Matt's site (who always has great photos):



The numbers on the odd insert are milled and filled and appear to match the dial fonts (only have the "2" to go by). The slash is radium and shows about 3 mR/h on my Russian Geiger counter. The slash is exactly the same size and color as the slashes at 3-6-9 on the original bezel.

As you say, the crazy part is the triangle and the slash! However, the whole thing is so completely professional that I don't think it was a mistake. A huge amount of work went into this thing. I did post an image above of a Cairelli submariner knock-off that had a vaguely similar configuration at 12. But that is the specific mystery within the larger mystery of the bezel.

Points that I think may be worth thinking about are:

--Many countries had begun to impose either bans or strict limits on government procurement of watches that contained radium

--A painted triangle is highly visible in the day but barely visible in the dark; vice versa for a radium hash mark

--The original S.58 insert is almost useless for diving. It is a style feature, really.

--The S.58 case and bezel are unique to that watch AFAIK (would love to hear otherwise!)

--The odd insert has a very useful layout for diving (countdown configuration, minutes marked over last 15, etc.)

--All of the dive watch mil specs of which I am aware have insert marking req'ts that the stock bezel would not meet

--At least one company (Enicar) had to design a special insert when it submitted its dive watch for gov't procurement

--The odd insert shows extreme age and so was probably installed at a time when (a) new inserts were available from zenith and (b) the watch itself could easily and cheaply have been replaced.

--The bizarre combination of slash and triangle might militate against the inference that this was a stock bezel from another yet-to-be-identified watch.

It is a proper mystery! I would love to solve it. I am hoping that the archive extract will help. If it was never sold, that would be great! If it was sold to a certain wholesaler in Rome, that would be great, too.

I am so glad to be talking about the insert!

Best, Hurley

PS. The Eterna Centennaire line, as the name implies, was a celebration of various 100 year anniversaries for Eterna beginning with the Centennaire 56 that celebrated the 100th anniversary of the founding of the company. I've looked in vain for something similar in connection with 58. Best, Hurley




I'm not going to comment on the whole dive vs. helicopter vs. airline pilots' watch debate. Hopefully the extract from Zenith will shed some light on that.

There are some things about the bezel on that watch that seem very strange to me:

1. If you Google up "Zenith S.58", there are what looks to be a couple of dozen examples of similar watches online. Not one of them has a bezel that comes close to resembling Hurley's example.

2. The bezel on the watch seems to be very heavily worn. The fit of the insert on the left side of the dial seems odd. There are marks on the inside of the bezel which do not seem to be part of the insert.

3. What's up with the "dual" hashmark at the 12 o'clock position? You would think that a watch used by a professional or military officer would either have a white hash or a luminous one, but not both. If you adjust the bezel so that the luminous is straight up, all the other marks are going to be slightly off.

As far as the 1958 issue goes, it was not unheard of for manufacturers to name models after the year introduced and keep that part of the name beyond the initial year of issue. The Eterna Centenaire 61 was one of those. I'm sure there are others.

Just my 2 cents worth.
gatorcpa

PS - The fish in the dive ad is a clown loach. Funny little fellow. They love to sleep lying on their sides. If you're not observant, you might think they've passed on, but they are very much alive.
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Well, this is interesting. Does this Breguet sit in an S.58 case?



Here is the link. Claims an estimate of 60K: https://www.thebillionaireshop.com/10-vintage-watch-icons-on-auction/

Actually sold for 100K. What a difference a (re)dial makes. (Needless to say, I don't mean modern redial -- Breguet has authenticated the watch as part of a batch of 60 from the mid 60s. I really mean rebadging if, indeed, this is a repurposed, by Breguet, S.58). http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...re-and-unusual-stainless-5967765-details.aspx

Some more: http://www.ablogtowatch.com/breguet-1646-diver-watch-newly-discovered-vintage-1965/

This is fascinating. If Cairelli ended up with a bunch of S.58s it could not sell (as indisputably happened with the AMI Tipo), could Breguet have ended up with the spares?

FWIW, I don't think this connection has ever been suggested before. I will contacting Christies today to see if I can get more photos of the watch.

This could raise some interesting possibilities re: bezels if the case was supplied to others (or, much more likely, bought from a third party).
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After 6 pages. ( Love a good spirited debate 👍 )
Quiet interested to see the archives when you get them.

But I do think you have discounted the 1958 a bit quick. ( not that I can say that is what the 58 is for )

One question

Were you around in 1958. ?

Because it was a big deal to a lot of watch makers. Hell if you only knew how spirited the yearly watch awards ( for precision ) were in the 40-50s



http://www.nas.edu/history/igy/

...to observe geophysical phenomena and to secure data from all parts of the world; to conduct this effort on a coordinated basis by fields, and in space and TIME, so that results could be collated in a meaningful manner.

 
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Was still a decade away from this world in 1958!

Hey, I would be the first to agree the the GY (or any of the other major events from 1958 that I listed) would have been a great occasion to issue a watch. It is just that I don't think anybody would aim for that and then not tell anyone! The watch is not called a Geophysique and nothing about the GY appears in any known ads or catalogs. I do think the totally bizarre reference to the watch being aimed at military officers in Tony' ad is a significant clue. As I have said from the outset -- probably in a different word, fairly uncontroversially -- this watch was filled with style cues designed to make it appeal to the PX/military market. A Cairelli connection, long posited by serious Zenith experts, and supported by the undisputed AMI Zenith Tipo connection, would only cement that. I honestly don't think we can say this is a GY watch without any reference anywhere to the GY. Might as well say its a founding of NASA watch or a first passenger jet flight -- both big events in '58.

But, in the meantime, I'm quite intrigued by the Breguet business above. That is an S.58 case!

Best, Hurley

After 6 pages. ( Love a good spirited debate 👍 )
Quiet interested to see the archives when you get them.

But I do think you have discounted the 1958 a bit quick. ( not that I can say that is what the 58 is for )

One question

Were you around in 1958. ?

Because it was a big deal to a lot of watch makers. Hell if you only knew how spirited the yearly watch awards ( for precision ) were in the 40-50s



http://www.nas.edu/history/igy/

...to observe geophysical phenomena and to secure data from all parts of the world; to conduct this effort on a coordinated basis by fields, and in space and TIME, so that results could be collated in a meaningful manner.
 
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I do think the totally bizarre reference to the watch being aimed at military officers in Tony' ad is a significant clue.

Not that I can read French but it's a bit hard to single out Military Officers when there are so many other science, sports referances

Maybe @Syrte or someone French could translate all those professions listed.
( did play rugby in France in my youth but was too young and arrogant to learn anything but Bière )
 
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'S58 super etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers; Technician, Chemist, Army Officer, Sport player, who want a watch with classical form and totally resistant to water, chemical vapor or dust…
S58 is equipped with a choc and magnetic field protected movement, spiral autocompensator, double arrow raquette and unbreakable spring. A special mechanism allow to set the time precisely by stoping the second hands'

sorry for my english...
 
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'S58 super etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers; Technician, Chemist, Army Officer, Sport player, who want a watch with classical form and totally resistant to water, chemical vapor or dust…
S58 is equipped with a choc and magnetic field protected movement, spiral autocompensator, double arrow raquette and unbreakable spring. A special mechanism allow to set the time precisely by stoping the second hands'

sorry for my english...

Correct. It wasn't "aimed" at military officers any more than it was chemists; they were simply one segment of a disparate group who may have benefitted from the watch's characteristics, and which Zenith included in that "shotgun" type of advertising. Also, and again, the high water resistance ("super-waterproof") was always the first quality emphasized, as judged by the ads and catalogues that I have seen.
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Cool thread - Where's LouS? ...I bet he'd have the answers you're looking for.
 
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I just noticed that the Breguet not only makes use of the S.58 case, bezel and insert. It also uses the same dial and sweep. Look at the dial contours and black finish. It is just the same as the S.58, I believe. This may be part of the larger S.58 story. It is extraordinary that, even with a cheap AS movement, the Breguet name adds 100K of value. Anyway, I would love to know who made the case. Somehow I doubt Zenith was supplying Breguet.
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I will also note that the Zenith ad indicates that the watch "has special protections against magnetic fields" and a "hack" feature, both classic amenities on pilot watches.

If only I'd read the text of Tony's ad 5 pages ago, we all could have saved a lot of time.

I said on p.1 of this thread:

"The S.58 was NOT released as a dive watch (as some forum members here have mistakenly suggested) -- the rotating dive bezel came in on later versions of the watch. It was initially a manual wind, time only watch in the tradition of the Mark XI/Explorer/Commando/Railmaster. In short, it was the perfect PX watch for a military man with the military aviation flavor provided by the unmistakable S-58 logo as an appealing style point."

The text of the advert indicates that this is exactly the product niche for which the designers at Zenith were gunning.

G'night, Hurley
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And the dishonesty continues.

Another reminder:

• the end of the very first sentence in the ad reads: Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving

• the image of the watch is superimposed on an underwater scene

• there were other dive watches produced in the mid/late-'50s that did not feature traditional dive bezels

• high water resistance was the first and most prominent marketing claim made by Zenith in relation to the S.58, both in adverts and catalogues

Hurley is, to put it kindly, producing propaganda in an effort to spin his dubious hypothesis that the watch name is related to a helicopter.