Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

Nobel Prize · Jun 27, 2017

@Tony C and @Hurley . I mean, I get it. But this is an interesting discussion and it would be worth looking into what it may be rather than just accusing people of dishonesty and trolling and lying and what not.

Cant we just combine efforts and find out what it may be? And I say this fully aware that @Hurley is looking for extract info etc and Tony has provided that letter and the add.... but really, Hurley is not making that much of a statement, he fully recognizes he is offering hypothetical options while he is looking for facts, which makes the quest exciting but not "dishonest " maybe, maybe he gets carried away in the process but hell!, that's what hobby and passions are for no?

In the end it will be what it will be, we can all have fun getting there or just keep trying to bring people down with ad hominem attacks. Both of your theories stand ground, both need more substance, focus on that instead of taking away from the others plate.

Just my 58 cents!

gatorcpa · Jun 27, 2017

Can't we all just get along?😀
gatorcpa

Tony C. · Jun 27, 2017

Nobel Prize
@Tony C and @Hurley . I mean, I get it. But this is an interesting discussion and it would be worth looking into what it may be rather than just accusing people of dishonesty and trolling and lying and what not.

Only one of the two of us has produced ad hominem attacks, and it isn't me. And I have backed up my accusations of dishonesty with clearly laid-out facts.

Hurley is not making that much of a statement, he fully recognizes he is offering hypothetical options while he is looking for facts, which makes the quest exciting but not "dishonest " maybe, maybe he gets carried away in the process but he'll, that's what hobby and passions are for no?

Bear in mind that Hurley originally claimed to be an "expert" in military watches who "lectures", etc. He has apparently since deleted those references, but anyone who seeks to bolster their credibility in that way should be held to a much higher standard than a standard collector who gets carried away by his passion.

He has shown a clear pattern of spinning, distorting and omitting facts in order to bolster his case, and I believe should be held to account.

I would like nothing better than to see him produce further evidence to illuminate the history of the watch, even if it does end up supporting his hypothesis. But I would also like to see him to do so in a more objective and honest manner.

redpcar · Jun 27, 2017

I'm working under the impression that Tony C and Hurley are the same person. Split personality. 🍿
Could I see a pic of the Zenith movement?

watchyouwant · Jun 27, 2017

very interesting. why does it take that long for the extract from the Zenith archives? or did they read this thread and don`t want to have their reputation questioned? i found Zenith always very helpful rgd. their history. it is a pitty, that personal attacks are part of this discussion. which is another unturned stone in the watchmaking history from the 50`s and early 60`s. i know Hurley for many years now and he is always interested in finding proof for hypothesis. it looks quite far fetched here, but he is definitely not a Troll. whatever that is anyway..... it is a bit of a clash of Egos; amplified by a hint of keyboard warrior ....... and, BTW, i never trusted that Breguet sale. all looks too fresh and does not make much sense. Breguet ( and other big swiss names ) had big problems after the war; Military Contracts were a safe commercial solution to an impoverished Europe rgd. expensive watches. when Breguet snatched the Type XX contract from the french government due to connections, it did not produce the chronograph. no experience in the field and the own developement would have not met the government timeline. Mathey Tissot on the other hand had that chronograph ready for marketing and sale. so, Mathey Tissot produced the Mil. Breguet type XX military pilots chrono and Breguet got the credit. and mathey tissot the funds. both happy. that is one reason, why some later Breguet type XX special designated Chronos to the CEV and marine had replacement backs with new engraving all of the sudden with Mathey Tissot numbers outside the case back. long numbers instead of the 4-6 Breguet numbers. so, not everything is clear cut in the vintage watch world. we hope for logical explanations and forget, the the money side of big watch companies have the final word in many cases..... keep going; this hobby has so many undiscovered angles to explore. kind regards. achim

STANDY · Jun 27, 2017

Funny as I have read and kept interest of this thread, and if prototype had of been mentioned in the very first post of this thread 😗

H Hurley
It could be a special order of some sort.

One thing I will mention and learnt a long time ago, is unless you buy a watch off the original owner that has had it since new there is no way to verify watches like this left the factory looking the same....... ( unless there is several documented cases of the same watch )

Tony C. · Jun 28, 2017

@watchyouwant

Achim -

I appreciate the technical substance of your post above, but calling out someone for being dishonest, and backing the accusation up with facts, is not a "personal attack". Some of the critical comments on this thread, like yours, and that of @Nobel Prize (above), are eerily reminiscent of the superficial American news media when it attempts to portray two opposing viewpoints as being equivalent, in spite of one being grossly inaccurate (e.g. "some people claim that Saddam had WMDs, while others..."). In other words, false equivalency.

On this thread, Hurley has consistently spun, distorted and omitted facts to fit his narrative, while I have not. He has frequently produced Straw Man arguments, which is a form of deception, and I have not. He has launched ad hominem attacks, and I have not. His posts have revealed obvious confirmation bias, and mine have not.

I'm not making these points because I have thin skin, or am not open to criticism. I am making them for the same reason that I have doggedly called Hurley out on his dubious methods and tainted conclusions - because language matters.

Regards,

Tony C.

watchyouwant · Jun 28, 2017

yes, tony. Language matters. just let the facts speak as they come to light and keep this dialog open. we can all learn from this. kind regards. achim

Vitezi · Jun 28, 2017

Excerpt from "Zenith: Swiss Watch Manufacture Since 1865" by Manfred Rössler
Sourced from here:

ConElPueblo · Jun 28, 2017

Vitezi
Excerpt from "Zenith: Swiss Watch Manufacture Since 1865" by Manfred Rössler
Sourced from here:

If I may be so bold, I'd say that the "target customer.." part has just been lifted straight out of the accompagning text for the add. Which the author then doesn't show... Is it really a mineral crystal, by the way?

Nobel Prize · Jun 28, 2017

Vitezi
Excerpt from "Zenith: Swiss Watch Manufacture Since 1865" by Manfred Rössler
Sourced from here:

Good enough for me.... definatelly makes a case for Hurley"s argument. Not quite the Helicopter link though. Maybe it is both? A Super- sealed (S) 58 (1958) watch for the military and other trades that deal with the environment and was purchased by Cairelli.

Fost · Jun 28, 2017

I dont want to play the devil advocate but for me the text is just a ttraduction of tony's add with some 'personnal' modification from the book's author. Especially 'the army was the largest target customer but technician, chemist etc...' which is very close to 'S58 super etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers; Technician, Chemist, Army Officer, Sport player etc..) except the first part...

ConElPueblo · Jun 28, 2017

Fost
I dont want to play the devil advocate but for me the text is just a ttraduction of tony's add with some 'personnal' modification from the book's author. Especially 'the army was the largest target customer but technician, chemist etc...' which is very close to 'S58 super etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers; Technician, Chemist, Army Officer, Sport player etc..) except the first part...

My point exactly. And I believe that Hurley has already quoted the author, i.e.. the Cairelli connection.

Nobel Prize · Jun 28, 2017

Fost
I dont want to play the devil advocate but for me the text is just a ttraduction of tony's add with some 'personnal' modification from the book's author. Especially 'the army was the largest target customer but technician, chemist etc...' which is very close to 'S58 super etanche was created by Zenith for Engineers; Technician, Chemist, Army Officer, Sport player etc..) except the first part...

But, of it happened to be the truth, wouldn't it match?

This really sounds like the Aqua Terra of its time to me. An elegant and sporty watch good for everything. In that sense the described demographic is spot on. More importantly the normal consumer would get a kick of buying a watch "meant" for special trades.

It doesn't mean much regarding Helicopters.... it does say a bit about diving. Because yes, just like any Oyster Perpetual cased watch is meant to be water sealed and good for a certain depth raiting ( as seen on above rolex adds) that doesn't mean the explorer or oyster date are diver watches.

This is an watch I would have bought. A workhorse that looks good.

Not a diver, not a pilot chronograph, not a trench watch, just something that borrows enough from both to market itself accordingly.

Did this flexibility and appeal make it worth to Cairelli to try to make a professional version of it? Maybe.... that's a good quest to follow IMO. Even if it didn't it is still a good and fun path to follow on solving the "bezel" mastery on Hurleys piece.

gatorcpa · Jun 28, 2017

Hurley may have quoted the book, but the implication of the last paragraph is that Cairelli purchased only the initial run of manual wind S. 58's. The automatic version was introduced two years later.

However, this reads like something not originally written in English, that was run through an old version of Google Translate.

Let's wait to see what Zenith has to say at this point.
gatorcpa

Americano74 · Jun 29, 2017

H Hurley
I would also suggest that the uncertain history of the S.58 is worth considering, too. The fact that the strange font of the S in S.58 is nearly identical to the Sikorsky flying "S" logo, combined with the fact that Zenith was supplying AMI helo pilots with chronographs at the same time -- all in an environment when all the big watchmakers were trying to find new ways to sell watches to militaries that were dramatically decreasing their 40s and early 50s era watch purchasing levels (the S.58/H-34 was being sold to no less than 17 militaries in the 50s and 60s) -- suggests to me that the S.58 may have been intended to be appealing to military procurement officers. Indeed, I think Manfred R has confirmed as much. Anyway, I've been at this for many years. I am very familiar with the "odd watches must be frankened" instinct -- I've evinced it myself. However, I've come to realize that strange stuff happened over the years....

H Hurley

I found a strange one at Portobello today. It has an irregular bezel insert. It is a countdown insert rather than the usual (useless) dot insert. In addition, it also has BOTH a white triangle AND a radium hash at 12 -- visible, I suppose, in both daylight and darkness. Very very useful insert as inserts go. The steel bezel itself is 100% original and correct. The insert is very old and seemingly original to the bezel (no way you could pry it out and reinsert it). It sits perfectly in the bezel and has exactly the same profiles as the standard insert. It is milled bakelite and very clearly factory (or professionally) made. If this insert has appeared before, I sure couldn't find any examples on the web. It could be a special order of some sort. Knowing how people here think, I am sure there will be suggestions of aftermarket or (not implausibly) borrowed from another watch. It just doesn't seem like that is the case. It's obviously very old and a perfect fit in every way (and note how insert font matches dial font). At the time this insert would have been produced (if it hasn't always been on the watch it's been there for decades), this would have been a very cheap watch to replace. Does this odd insert tie into the mysterious history of the S.58. At the time the S.58 was in the Zenith catalog, Zenith was selling lots of watched to Carelli and other military suppliers. Did they want to see a watch with a practical (rather than vestigial) bezel. Any thoughts? Best, Hurley. PS. The lume in the hands is much darker in person; flash issues. H

#chariots-of-fire.MP3 ,#the-A- team-intro soundtrack.mp3 ,#unresolved-mysteries.com ,

cchen · Jul 1, 2017

To add fuel to the fire.... ::stirthepot::

Was researching something completely different when this came up, from a Bonhams watch sold a few years ago:

"The Zenith S.58 was conceived during the golden age of dive watches as competition to the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms, Rolex Submariner and Omega Seamaster. The 'S' stands for Super water-resistant and '58' for the year of introduction, 1958."

Americano74 · Jul 1, 2017

cchen
To add fuel to the fire....

Was researching something completely different when this came up, from a Bonhams watch sold a few years ago:

"The Zenith S.58 was conceived during the golden age of dive watches as competition to the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms, Rolex Submariner and Omega Seamaster. The 'S' stands for Super water-resistant and '58' for the year of introduction, 1958."

I did note when doing Research into zenith cockpit watches from the comfort of my desktop computer that the design of the rim on the besel is the same as the as the S 58.

The vespa scooter was also inspired on Italian airplane designs . Nothing is impossible.

I am currently stuck in some obscure airport in the south americas , Cannot upload pictures to compare.

ConElPueblo · Nov 3, 2017

So...

Four months later, where are we now? Sorry, but I just couldn't let this sleeping dog lie. @Hurley - You've been quiet for some time now, any news?

Dogmann · Nov 3, 2017

@ConElPueblo

He is now residing at a dark site due to Sikorsky's many military ties and the need for the truth to be suppressed 😉😉

Marc

Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

Nobel Prize

gatorcpa

Tony C.

redpcar

watchyouwant

STANDY

Tony C.

watchyouwant

Vitezi

ConElPueblo

Nobel Prize

Fost

ConElPueblo

Nobel Prize

gatorcpa

Americano74

cchen

Americano74

ConElPueblo

Dogmann

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