Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

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You raise solid points, DD.

However, I posted the ads for the 30s Rolex and lady datejust that tout the same virtues with precisely the same iconography. No one would call them dive watches. However, in the end, the watch's water-tightness per se is largely irrelevant to my suggestion that there must be more to the name than a mere reference to 1958. If the watch's dive capabilities were its chief marketing feature, you might think that, like virtually every other company, Zenith would have put something about that (like a depth rating AT LEAST) on the dial or casebook -- instead of a reference (allegedly) to the year it was introduced. They couldn't be sure every potential customer would see the clownfish ad.... So, I throw it right back at you: it is super odd that if diving was what the watch was about, why did they waste all the real estate on the watch talking about 1958 and not about the suitability of the watch for diving? I am starting to think there is a bit of mass hypnosis here. Does what you are saying really make sense to you? "The watch is all about diving. One random ad proves that. But the watch doesn't have one reference of any kind, on the dial or casebook (which both bear the S58 logo) about watertightness or anything else." Seriously, does that make sense? There is something odd about this watch that is not explained by 1958 and one advert with a fish. I have conjectured one possibility based on the opinion of the most widely acknowledged expert on Zenith watches AND a bit of common sense. I have explicitly said that all further conjecture must await archive info. However, my guess is that there is more to this story than a decade long celebration of 1958. And I do think Cairelli was involved. But we will see.

Best, Hurley

Bona fide dive watch or not, the period ad explicitly states that the watch is capable of diving. It would be odd to mention such a capability if the watch was not designed with the intention of exploiting it. The ad also uses the phrase "super-étanche" to describe the case. As far as I know, this is not standard terminology. Roethlisberger's claim about the meaning of the "S" would seem to be somewhat supported by the usage of such a phrase.
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Again, solid points. But if you google s58, you will see how widely that nomenclature was used, even at the time. Again, I am not so wedded to the Sikorsky explanation (despite Zenith's long connection to aviation and avionics, its connection to Sikorsky, its recurring reliance on its aviation heritage to market watches, and the fact that Zenith watches were being issued at the same time to S58 pilots) as I am convinced that a reference to a meaningless and (from a marketing standpoint) hugely counterproductive year -- 1958 -- does not explain what the name means.

I don't suppose that there is any point in reminding folks that I did not come here to discuss the name -- only to see whether anyone had thoughts on the strange bezel....

All the best, Hurley

PS. FWIW, the S is not the strange part. if the watch were called an S150 (like a SM300) I would't even be here. It's the 1958 reference that seems wrong, combined with what looks like -- to my eye -- a reference to the Sikorsky logo and the odd and unprecedented casebook engraving.





So I have no dog in this fight and I have no knowledge of vintage watches.
2 things strike me here though.
1st. The S on the watch does not look anything like the Sikorsky S
2nd. I know a small bit of helicopters (no expert) and I always knew that bird as an H-34 or a CH-34. I think this is what most people know them as. So why would Zenith use S-58 to align this watch when it was just an internal project name?
 
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For whatever reason (maybe they are justifiably scared of the wrath of Tony), no one else seems willing to make that rather obvious observation.
Hey!! I mentioned it, sort of, when i said i didn't think that would be the case and if so it would be a disappointing gimmick....ok, maybe not quite mentioned it but I do agree it does not quite make sense.
 
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Sorry!! You did indeed. There are a lot of posts.

Needless to say, I simultaneously have gotten caught up in this but at the same time couldn't care less about the outcome. The archive extracts will probably tell the story. Frankly, I'm much more interested in the odd bezel for reasons I won't mention here lest I start Round 2!

But I am fascinated, indeed, by the human dynamics of this thread. I think anybody would agree -- and so many have said so over the years -- that the S58 is a bit of a mystery. It really stands out in the Zenith line in terms of the dial inscription and case engravings (which do resemble military engravings, but obviously are not). And the "Go 1958!" explanation just doesn't make any intuitive sense. Nobody wanted to have their products seem dated in the 1950s or 1960s. Sure Marc could be correct, but there is plenty of room for thoughtful alternative conjecture-- at least as long as the conjecturers are also talking to recognized experts and ordering archive extracts! The Sikorsky link is based on many well-erstablished facts. Sure it could be way off. But it would have been more fun to have people googling info, checking their volumes by Whitney, Ziggy and Billy Schorr, and generally collecting facts -- as opposed to dismissing things out of hand. It certainly is not a good way to ferret out the truth. Or to enjoy yourselves. I remember the early days of MWR when very little was known about anything. GSTP was "general service time piece" because that was what people had been saying (even Ziggy, I believe) and because it made sense. In time, the property lists were discovered and all became clear. I also remember when Burford dials first appeared and were immediately denounced by the web-punters as fakes. Fortunately, I was lucky enough to grab a Burford A6538 (in a well-documented caper in Nottingham) before people were sure what they were. Anyway, this is a great hobby and more discoveries are made by keeping an open mind than by sticking unrelentingly to what you think you already know. I've had to learn that lesson myself over and over again, I can tell you!

Sermon over. Gentelmen, I will decamp to MWR now. You can find me there. Thank you all for your generous input with my mystery. You can be sure I'll post the Zenith extracts here when I get them. I'll be at Portobello, God willing, this Saturday and will take any Omega forum member to lunch who happens to be there. I'll be at chatting with Martyn or Paul (in the "red kettle" arcade) around noon. They can point me out. Simon (and maybe Ian) will be joining me, as well. Happy hunting to all of you!

Warm regards, Hurley
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My long experience with all the LVMH companies is that they often (but not always) know ZERO about the true history of the brands that they have acquired.
Quoted for truth. And not just the LVMH companies.
 
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I always thought with a lot of these early dive watches that the numerals related to the depth rating in fathoms, in this case 58 fathoms is just over 100m, about 105/106. Just idle musings really, with maybe the S coming from the word for dive or waterproof in one of the predominant watchmaking languages of the time.
Just my two pence worth, for the sake of joining in.😀
 
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Same iconography but no mention of diving. The underwater depictions surely imply water-resistance but not necessarily anything more. I merely brought this up as you continue to refer to the fish in the ad, but not the text.

However, I am not interested in whether the S.58 is a "dive watch" but rather if Roethlisberger's claims are plausible. Based on this ad, which is the only piece of evidence provided, his claim about the "S" does seem plausible. And if he is right about the "S" then there may be some merit in exploring his claim about the "58".

Also, the watch does not need to be "all about diving" for the name to reference its water-resistant case. Just as "Pilot" was slapped onto a plethora of Zenith dials and cases with little justification, the name "S.58" may not be as meaningful as one might hope.
 
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You may have noticed that I conjectured above along similar lines (I asked whether the watch was rated at 190 ft). But your suggestion is even better! I especially like it as an avid Blancpain FF collector.... It's a great thought and an elegant suggestion. And why not be 8 fathoms better than Blancpain! With bakelite to boot!

I always thought with a lot of these early dive watches that the numerals related to the depth rating in fathoms, in this case 58 fathoms is just over 100m, about 105/106. Just idle musings really, with maybe the S coming from the word for dive or waterproof in one of the predominant watchmaking languages of the time.
Just my two pence worth, for the sake of joining in.😀
 
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I think I agree with you. Certainly it is doubtful that Marc is only half right! I think you've hit on the strongest possible expression of Tony's argument. However, in the end, you also supply the most powerful argument against Tony. Since 1958 just can't be the answer IMO, then Marc's explanation for the S must be wrong, too. Unless, off course, the 58 fathoms argument is correct.... Then it would all make perfect sense! The two parts would go together nicely. Was it an inside joke at Zenith (at BP's expense) that the higher ups eventually decided was in poor taste? Or are there 58 fathoms ads out there waiting to be found? That would be very cool. I forget; what is the depth rating of the watch? Best, Hurley

PS. I read your post again; I do agree with you!





Same iconography but no mention of diving. The underwater depictions surely imply water-resistance but not necessarily anything more. I merely brought this up as you continue to refer to the fish in the ad, but not the text.

However, I am not interested in whether the S.58 is a "dive watch" but rather if Roethlisberger's claims are plausible. Based on this ad, which is the only piece of evidence provided, his claim about the "S" does seem plausible. And if he is right about the "S" then there may be some merit in exploring his claim about the "58".

Also, the watch does not need to be "all about diving" for the name to reference its water-resistant case. Just as "Pilot" was slapped onto a plethora of Zenith dials and cases with little justification, the name "S.58" may not be as meaningful as one might hope.
 
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I think I agree with you. Certainly it is doubtful that Marc is only half right! I think you've hit on the strongest possible expression of Tony's argument. However, in the end, you also supply the most powerful argument against Tony. Since 1958 just can't be the answer IMO, then Marc's explanation for the S must be wrong, too. Unless, off course, the 58 fathoms argument is correct.... Then it would all make perfect sense!

Are you familiar with the (somehow wildly successful) American film Dumb and Dumber? I ask because it would be a fine title for the trajectory of your argument on this thread, the latest theory being that 58 was perhaps a reference to fathoms.

Never mind that the watch was rated at 150/200m (i.e. 82/109 fathoms). 🤦
 
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I finally got around to reading the tiny French text in Tony's clownfish (actually they might be loaches: a classic bottom-feeder) advertisement.

It doesn't talk about divers at all, but it says it is the perfect watch for, are you ready for it, military officers.....

(It also mentions engineers and scientists.)

Dumb, dumber, dumbest.

All the best, Hurley

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Same iconography but no mention of diving. The underwater depictions surely imply water-resistance but not necessarily anything more. I merely brought this up as you continue to refer to the fish in the ad, but not the text.

However, I am not interested in whether the S.58 is a "dive watch" but rather if Roethlisberger's claims are plausible. Based on this ad, which is the only piece of evidence provided, his claim about the "S" does seem plausible. And if he is right about the "S" then there may be some merit in exploring his claim about the "58".

There is plenty of other evidence supporting Roethlisberger's claim, including the fact that the S.58 is first described in catalogues as being "superwasserdicht". That's precisely the phrase that he used in English when describing the reason for the S.
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I finally got around to reading the tiny French text in Tony's clownfish advertisement.

It doesn't talk about divers at all, but it says it is the perfect watch for, are you ready for it, military officers.....

(It also mentions engineers and scientists.)

If any readers haven't figured by now that Hurley is essentially a troll, this should wake them up. The end of the very first sentence in the ad reads: Super-waterproof case supporting 150 meters of diving

Yet he claims that "It doesn't talk about divers at all". Presumably none of his lectures are given in French.
 
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It does say it is rated to a depth of 150 meters. But the text plainly says it is the perfect watch for chemists, engineers, military officers and sportsmen who want an accurate and waterproof watch. It does not list divers among the intended consumers. Just read it for yourselves. The meter is now moving ineluctably from "sad" to "pathetic."

I must say, it is almost too good -- and too improbable -- that Tony's Exhibit A actually lists "military officers" as one of the 3 or 4 intended classes of consumers. What is the chance of that? Show me any other watch ad that specifically lists military officers as the target audience. Seriously.

I do kick myself a little for not trying to read the ad before. In my defense, it is quite small on my phone.

Best, Hurley
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It does say it is rated to a depth of 150 meters.

And for those who may be wondering about my increasing mentions of his dishonesty, here is yet another clear example.

I gave a precise, literal translation of what the ad says, which destroys his false claim that "It doesn't talk about divers at all". And in response, he distorts what it actually says, and its implications, with the above sentence.
 
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Seriously, just read it for yourselves.

And for those who may be wondering about my increasing mentions of his dishonesty, here is yet another clear example.

I gave a precise, literal translation of what the ad says, which destroys his false claim that "It doesn't talk about divers at all". And in response, he distorts what it actually says, and its implications, with the above sentence.
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No -- I am either Hurley or marknine (on VRF and the old IWC forum -- Wasn't/Isn't Michael F. a good man!). I have never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. H!

But the "Mr." part scares me a bit. It seems a bit Harrow schoolmaster....

Having said that, he seems like a cool guy. I'd buy him a beer.

Hi Hurley

Nice watch, they were covered on the OF Zenith forum, might be a old unremembered post but was bumped earlier this year after another S.58 showed up on eBay

https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-mysterious-zenith-s-58.5532/

Lol I also got a raking over my first post but was all good fun & hopefully made for a interesting read & thanks for the offer of a pint will take you up on it some time (long old story on how I got the Mr monika)

Regards
Mr.H
 
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I must say, I'm still chuckling over here. I can't believe that it actually says "military officers."

It would only be better if it said "Italian Air Force officers."

Or better yet: "Hurley est correct. La montre a été commandée par Cairelli et destinée aux pilotes d'hélicoptères en Italie." Keep looking, Tony! You'll find it! (;.

Best, Hurley
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Mr. H!!

It is an honour, sir. I read a few of your posts and I love your attention to detail.

I'll stand you to a Sazerac anytime you're in town.

All the best, Hurley (the lesser H)

Hi Hurley

Nice watch, they were covered on the OF Zenith forum, might be a old unremembered post but was bumped earlier this year after another S.58 showed up on eBay

https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-mysterious-zenith-s-58.5532/

Lol I also got a raking over my first post but was all good fun & hopefully made for a interesting read & thanks for the offer of a pint will take you up on it some time (long old story on how I got the Mr monika)

Regards
Mr.H