Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

Was a highly water resistant general purpose watch ideal for a Navy helicopter?

From the Sikorsky site:

"Early development of the Sikorsky S-58 (H-34) helicopter was accomplished with company funds as a follow on for the S-55 (H-19) helicopter. It was twice as powerful as the S-55 and much more aerodynamic. It was marketed to the Navy and Marine Corps but the Navy chose the Bell HSL-1 helicopter and the Marines the S-56 (H-37) helicopter. Problems with both these programs led [the Navy and Marine Corps] back to Sikorsky to purchase over 1,000 S-58 helicopters in two configurations. The Navy Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) version SH-34J (HSS-1 and HSS-1N) was contracted for in June 1952. First flight was on March 8, 1954."

Sorry; couldn't resist!

Just not buying the original S.58 as a dive watch no matter how much you insist -- and how many times you show the advert with the fish! It's a splashy pilot watch from a company that had been making pilot watches for a long time!

These must be dive watches, too!



And my new favorite dive watch:



Stay well, Hurley

The text on that advert does seem to emphasize the diving qualities. Although I do agree with you that it does not read as a "Diver specialized " watch. More as a "Diver version of the explorer" I can't read the small letter paragraphs, although for what I see they keep emphasizing the sealed case and diving rate. The main text reads:

"A watch with classic lines offers the advantages of a super-sealed case that supports a 150 m dive."

It does not read " A watch for diving, sports, etc." just that it is an elegant classic watch that has that capability. Like the aqua- terra now. Not a diving watch, but a watch you can dive with.

However, I insist, it makes no sense to have a Pilot watch named after a helicopter and not market it as " a watch with classic lines that endures in the harshest environments....from the flying on the cockpit of an S-58 to the bridge of a submarine" If it did, I would agree with you it is a great sell for a Naval Officer (as I seem to have read on this thread that the S-58 was part of the Naval fleet) BUT, who issues such a watch, a military grade watch, a great watch with provenance....and then markets it on a fish tank without any reference whatsoever to the Navy, the military, Helicopters, Pilots....

Perhaps the mystery here is that the head of marketing at Zenith during the late 50's had a job!!

I have serious questions about this one...is Mickey right handed or left handed? Do mice know how to tell the time? do they care? Who told Mickey yellow shoes go with red pants (and gloves) Where is his shirt??

But what I have no question about is....it is a diving watch....then again, who markets a diving watch with mice instead of fish?

@Hurley , I am beginning to see a common trend on your taste for incongruous watches.

You again have hit the nail on the head, I think. There really is no discernible marketing strategy here at all. "Hooray 1958" doesn't cut it. And hard core dive watch doesn't cut it either. I think if we were down at the pub with the pictured S58 on the table, we'd all agree that it's not a dive watch by any subjective standard. White dial, no bezel, minimal lume, etc. If we were all buddies, I think we'd agree to that. Honestly.

So then WTF???

Which gets me back to where we started. If these were a special order for Cairelli, as some respected folks seem to insist, then it suddenly makes sense. They were a special order for a government supplier who had some vague idea of selling them to naval helo crews -- or maybe just sailors generally -- in Italy. They were NEVER part of any Zenith marketing strategy. Remember, Cairelli was supplying Zenith, UG and Breitling chronos to helo pilots already at the time. Maybe it seemed like a good idea to them. Cairelli were not great businessmen. They ordered way too many chronos and had to sell a bunch at a loss on the civilian market. They were out of business by the 70s.

So maybe Tony (and Marc) is absolutely correct when he says Zenith never (wittingly) produced any kind of Sikorsky watch. And maybe I'm right that the "Go 1958!" concept is wrong, too. Maybe the idea originated with Cairelli and somehow Zenith decided it liked the design of the watch and put it in the catalog -- but with no clue how to market it because it was not originally a Zenith concept. So they slapped a bezel on it and called it a dive watch. That was the thing to do in 1960....

Hey, I'm just guessing. But you are 100% right when you say that the Zenith marketing campaign around this watch makes no sense at all. Having said that, we have only seen one advert AFAIK. We should not base too much on a single data point.

Anyway, I'm just speculating until I get those three extracts!

In the meantime, here is a bit of classic Zenith from the weekend:



Love to meet in London or NYC sometime.

Best, Hurley

FYI, that was Nimitz's personal watch....

And let me just say one other thing. Please don't take it the wrong way. You can look at my history on MWR and see that I approach these things seriously...up to a point. However, it should be fun to bat these ideas around, even if you don't agree with the bottom line. I always humor people; it's the crazy ones that are often right in the end. I remember the hoots & hollers my silver gilt 369 sub got on the VRF (where I am marknine). But I believed in it and when Mr. Stahl produced a catalog photo, the laughing stopped. Best to you all, Hurley

Oh no! I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Tony. I must be going soft.

Tony, rather than talk about the watch anymore, can you just answer these 2 questions:

1. Why do you keep saying that I think Marc is lying? I have only ever said that he may not know what happened 60 years ago. I have repeatedly said that I have no reason to think he is lying at all.

2. What don't you understand about my repeated statements that only the archive extracts (which I ordered today) can prove or disprove any of these theories?

Tony, I am certainly glad you belong to the Omega forum and none that I frequent on a regular basis.

God bless you, sir.

All the best, Hurley

PS. Here is a nice potted overview of the development of waterproof watches. There is even a bit of Zenith (and Omega) content within. H

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/waterproof.php

Oh Tony, you don't seem like a happy man! I truly wish you well, sir.

This highly interesting thread feels a bit like some discussions on climate change.
On the one hand the guys that want to support their claims with proof, deduction, reasoning, logic and scientific support, on the other hand the guys that base their opinion on hypothesis, some assumptions, claimed knowledge and rhetorics.

Well...... 🍿🍿

Hey, as I've said repeatedly, I'm just waiting for the archive extracts.

In the meantime, I'm the first to concede that Tony has his one sentence letter (written by someone 60 years and two corporate takeovers removed from the relevant events) and exactly one picture of the watch with a fish in it. Hard to dispute that kind of evidence, I suppose.

And on the climate change front, I am much more persuaded by the folks who rely on common sense than the ones who trot out alleged "facts." And my common sense tells me that Zenith did not decide to celebrate 1958 for ten years with its own special watch. If it was the S150, we'd be arguing about something else.

Which makes me wonder... The claimed depth rating wasn't 190 feet (58 meters), was it...?

Best, Hurley

PS. Here are the things Zenith could have commemorated (but apparently didn't) with its special 1958 watch:

NASA National Aeronautics and Space Administration is formed. (that would have been a really good one!)

14 year old Bobby Fischer wins the United States Chess Championship.

Toyota and Datsun Cars go on sale in The US

Nikita Khrushchev becomes Premier of the Soviet Union

US passenger jet flights start with a National Airlines Boeing 707 (another natural)

The first Trans Atlantic passenger jetliner service begins with flights between London and New York on the new British Comet Jet (Crikey, that deserves a watch!)

Sir Edmund Hillary reaches the South Pole (!!)

The Microchip was invented co-invented

Brazil wins the 1958 World Cup in Sweden

You didn't used to be Mr.H did you?

For some reason, the current thread reminds me of this one https://omegaforums.net/threads/time-capsule.42389/

🙄

No -- I am either Hurley or marknine (on VRF and the old IWC forum -- Wasn't/Isn't Michael F. a good man!). I have never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. H!

But the "Mr." part scares me a bit. It seems a bit Harrow schoolmaster....

Having said that, he seems like a cool guy. I'd buy him a beer.

THANK YOU! It does seem odd, indeed, sir.

This has been my point from the beginning.

For whatever reason (maybe they are justifiably scared of the wrath of Tony), no one else seems willing to make that rather obvious observation.

I cannot tell you also (although, again, no one seems to want to acknowledge it for whatever reason) how profoundly odd it is that Zenith would put that GIANT S58 on the casebook. Did they EVER do that before or since with a watch. And for what? To celebrate...1958????

I mean look at this engraving:



Were they really that excited about 1958 that, for the first time in the company's history, they put a giant wonking engraving on the back? Seriously -- just because it was 1958? Doesn't it make a lot more sense that someone commissioned that incredibly odd and otherwise inexplicable feature? (Perhaps even someone who was familiar with military casebook engravings which it resembles so closely?)

Hey, look, I know about Marc's note and the pic of the cute (and somehow apt) clownfish. But does that really add up to you?

As for your question, I don't know precisely when the S.58 was dropped from the catalogs, but it was certainly available into the mid 60s going by serial numbers that appear in the market -- always an inexact science.

See http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?63445-Zenith-S-58-some-more-info-now

Bona fide dive watch or not, the period ad explicitly states that the watch is capable of diving. It would be odd to mention such a capability if the watch was not designed with the intention of exploiting it. The ad also uses the phrase "super-étanche" to describe the case. As far as I know, this is not standard terminology. Roethlisberger's claim about the meaning of the "S" would seem to be somewhat supported by the usage of such a phrase.

So I have no dog in this fight and I have no knowledge of vintage watches.
2 things strike me here though.
1st. The S on the watch does not look anything like the Sikorsky S
2nd. I know a small bit of helicopters (no expert) and I always knew that bird as an H-34 or a CH-34. I think this is what most people know them as. So why would Zenith use S-58 to align this watch when it was just an internal project name?