Speedy water damage repair/restoration

Hi Maurice

I'm sure the sort of work you're doing in making parts must be terribly time consuming and expensive so, as you say, just for something rare. Sounds like you were happy with the result and it was clearly worth it. I think most people forget how small these parts are and the skill involved in fabricating them from scratch.

Both you and Rob are absolutely correct about the parts supply issues but I don't see an easy way out at the moment. Certainly, it's easy enough to stamp out, for example, a 565 setting lever spring as the tolerances and finish are not that critical but when you get into balance staffs and wheels, the problems are huge. I've seen some calibres where the end shake on the balance staff is not adjustable so that's another issue for a batch run when the allowable shake is measured in hundredths of a mm.

In the sixties, I think I'm right in saying that the biggest movement manufacturers in the world were a British company called Smiths. I am pretty sure they made everything except for hairsprings so, I don't know who would feel they could do that now. Very specialised I believe so we'll not see those being made cheaply.

Ah well, we'll see if anyone has any luck getting Swatch to change their mind.

By the way, I used that spring as an example because they are made. Here, from Cousins and you need to add VAT to these so, the Omega part is about €70 and the pattern part about €15. Out of interest, I bought one of these to see how it compared when I bought the Omega part. The finish was poor in comparison but it was correct. I think with half an hours polishing, it would be indistinguishable from the €70 part but, the labour then removes virtually all the cost saving!



Cheers, Chris

Hello Chris,

the setting lever spring example you chose is a very good one. I agree that the time required to bring the finish to an acceptable standard would probably remove all the cost saving. Can you do it out of a normal service?
Balance staffs were also produced by independent companies for a huge number of calibers and used to be fairly cheap. Now Swatch group requires you to order the entire balance/hairspring set!
Unfortunately, Swiss watch companies have set their teeth on the overhauling business and I doubt they will stacken off. This is going to be a huge problem for all of us making a living out of this profession. Customers, in the end, can always make reference to the mobile phone clock!

Cheers,

Maurice

Hello Chris and Maurice,

Fantastic discussion and more of this type of back and forth is needed.

As much as I support the efforts that have taken place with the EU courts and the latest round of efforts with the IAF through the BWCMG, I fear that it's not going to change anything. I always prefer a solution that put you in charge of the results, vs hoping to change someone else's mind about something.

I think a solution such as the BestFit Watch Material supplier would fill a big gap in the access to spares, not all spares, but at least some of them. Not so much making parts for specific movements, but making movement parts in assorted sizes so that you can either find the exact replacement part you need, or one that only needs slight adjustment to fit.

Like Maurice, I have the tooling and skills to make many movement parts, if not all, the problem of course is the time it takes to make a part by hand, even a simple stem can take a lot of time to get right.

Looks like I'll be focusing more and more on the vintage watches and clocks...as will most watchmakers, which will drive more repair traffic to the manufacturers and with it the higher costs, long turn times, and lack of decision making by the customer.

Rob

Hi Rob,

thank you very much for your reply. I have supported all the efforts which have taken place in the community but, like you, I fear that all this ado is not going to change anything.
Additionally, given that most of my work comes from ADs and I do not deal with private collectors, I have to keep my Swiss brands qualification alive every year, fulfilling all their requirements (and Omega's are among the worst).
The problem is that they are in total control of the market.
When I read what collectors write about DON bezels or the upcoming Christie's auction, I smile: Swatch Group could produce thousands of DON bezels, exactly as the originals, at a cost of few cents each and all the lots of the Christie's auction are probably worth together a tiny fraction of the daily turnover of this giant. They can do what they want.
Probably next year the only Omega watch not equipped with a new in-house movement will be the Moonwatch. The coaxiales are now kings and Swatch Group is leading the market where it is more profitable for them: for such a reason I do not think they will move their attention away from the servicing business.
I also think that a solution such as the BestFit Watch Material supplier would fill a big gap in the access to spares, but someone should be willing to step in. Will it happen?

Regards,

Maurice

Hi Maurice, Rob and Al

It's an interesting issue and I don't see a way forward except for those who get a Swatch account like Al has.

I could spend the time cleaning up the pattern spring as my time is not being charged because it's a hobby but, it will be inefficient for anyone doing this for a living. To be honest, that may be the only pattern part for a 565 that I've seen, apart from stems, although when you look at it, even €15 for what it is seems a lot. The shame here is the restriction being imposed on vintage parts. This makes little sense to me but just seems to be a by product of the tightening of parts supply for the modern calibres.

On the other hand, it's surprising that these parts are still available from the original manufacturer. A few years ago, Jaguar basically supplied new bonnets for a sixties XKE and that was it. I had a chat with one of their representatives recently and he proudly displayed their new exhaust to original specs as well as a few other items. They are moving back into supplying parts for their Heritage line as I suppose there is money to be made. Can't see them manufacturing many parts for sixties cars but, it would be nice. Note, they don't insist on fitting the bonnet or exhaust themselves....

Those DON bezels might be pennies to make but I bet they wouldn't sell them for that!

As Al says, this sort of manufacturing is not easy and for the limited vintage market, I can't see anyone jumping in. Even if you concentrated on just on a few calibres such as the 550 series and the 86x series, the market would be pretty small outside of this forum and a few others. Perhaps Bestfit is the way to go but I suspect these are only going to be for a few items. The problems in starting something like that really are huge.

Well, I'm going to stick to collecting a few calibres that I already have some parts for (and may be able to get some in the future). The 86x won't be one of them though (just coming back on topic) and, mores the pity, I certainly won't be buying anything that needs work like your example in this thread, Rob not now prices are on the up and availability is diminishing.

Cheers, Chris

3-D printing will be a huge player in making "generic" movement parts, which will make a lot of parts that may have been difficult to source more available. The question is materials, as they may well not last as well as the factory items. Could be interesting.

Hi Chris,

I don't see a way forward other than someone making replacement parts, either individuals like me who do one-off's or a company making them on a large scale and selling to the supply houses.

If Swatch could justify the closing down of all the accounts of all the major watch supply houses worldwide, with the loss of millions of dollars in revenue, then I believe it's a matter of time before they do the same for individuals with Swatch parts accounts. Why would Swatch maintain it's in-house structure and accounting etc to be able to sell a few parts for a few euros to various individuals worldwide, it doesn't make a lot of sense when you can justify closing accounts buying thousands of parts for millions of euros. The contacts I have who are Swatch account holders tell me that they see the writing on the wall...

If I had a Swatch parts account, I would not be fixing watches but buying all the parts I could...that's where the money is.

Here's what I don't understand regarding the making of replacement parts. Bare with me as this is not my area of expertise for sure, but here's how I analyse and see it...from a non-engineering perspective.

Someone, somewhere, makes the tooling that makes the movement parts, that make up the movements. I don't know if the tooling is made in-house by each manufacturer, if it's made in Switzerland only, or somewhere else, or even if it's available for purchase.

But lets assume that the same tooling is available for purchase (it must be, how else are those outside of Swatch setting up to make their own movements in-house).

I set up a company and buy all the same tools that the Swatch manufacturers use to make movement parts. Then I start making parts using the specifications of the originals, for this example say balance staff's. I make the new staff's based on my measurements of the existing staff. With regards to tolerances, can I just not set the CNC machine to it's lowest most accurate tolerance and make my staff's? Or if that's not possible or practical, how about I make the staff and even if it's out of tolerance slightly, the watchmaker who is going to install it does the final adjustments by hand. Surely in this example a staff can be made for less than the $120+ per staff of the ones that are still available from the supply houses. Still available - because it sounds like they are no longer made by Swatch, well more accurately the staff's are still made, but sold as a balance assembly unit and not as an individual part.

What about an existing company like Sellita who already have the tooling and set up to make ETA 28XX and 7750 copies, could the not make adjustments to the tooling to pump out compatible ETA parts for these and other movements? How much more effort is it when you have all the tooling in house.

Regarding what parts to make, I suggest you get all the major supply houses to compare parts usage, compile that list and make the parts that are in the most demand. We limit ourselves to this forum and a few other forums trying to guess market size, but the real knowledge is with the supply houses, and as far as I know, they aren't talking and have never gotten together and tried to come up with a solution. I would rather be in the drivers seat directing my future, than expecting someone beyond my control to change their minds.

How is the automotive aftermarket industry able to make parts for all makes of cars, do they have access to the original drawings from Mercedes or VW or Audi? or do they reverse engineer them? Certainly the market of aftermarket automotive parts is large, and I think it's also large for watches, we just don't really know do we?

I am sure this can go back and forth many times, all we can do is sit back and see what happens. The real losers are watch owners, not me as a watchmaker, because I can focus on vintage watches were parts are no longer available, and offer a service that is becoming more difficult to find, I take in clocks all the time now because there is a huge market and more profit in clocks, and they are easier to work on. So as a watchmaker I am adaptable, but if you own a watch that you can only get serviced at one location - your stuck.

In summary, it's a mess...but I feel that if everyone is thinking the same (force Swatch and others to change their minds) then no one is thinking...

Great discussion, sort of off topic from what I posted, but interesting for sure.
Rob

I'd be interested to come back to the other points later as batch manufacturing is a bit difficult. You're more in the bespoke business so it's a leap. Others have said about the motor industry comparison and it's worth a little post (might go on a bit here...):

One major difference between cars and watches is that car manufacturers usually buy in lots of standard parts. Taking the 1960s Jaguar E-Type (XKE) as an example, they likely bought in:
Timken wheel bearings (definitely)
Monroe shock absorbers
??? road springs (I forget)
QH water pumps and UJs
Lucas switches and all electrics🙄
Hepolite pistons
Vandervell white metal bearings
Smiths gauges
Girling/Lockheed brakes
Pilkingtons glass
Moss gearboxes
SU carbs, manifolds, fuel pump, filters
C??? radiators (I forget)
Lucas washer system

The list of companies goes on and on but makes for depressing reading when you realise many are on their knees today. When you look at a complete braking system, the only parts made in house are the brake pedal and pedal box. On the steering, it's just the steering column, steering wheel and horn push (no, hang on, Mota-Lita made the wheel....). Some of these parts were first made for that car but then were used in others.

So, if those companies still exist, they're probably at liberty to make new parts based on original drawings/tools/patterns. The thing is that a Timken 18590-18520 bearing is original fitment for an inner rear hub on an E but also will be used in other applications so they can sell it under their part number. I think people then view that as an aftermarket part. Really, who would want to tool up to make stuff like this when it's so specialised, you'd spend a fortune in R&D.

This to me is a major difference and the main people I can think of in the watch world like this are Generale Ressorts. I bought one of their mainsprings for an Omega as well as the Omega spring and could see no difference except for the price at about a quarter. I suspect they supply Omega but I could be wrong. Suppose I should include the jewel manufacturers, Inca and so on as well. Who would make any of these parts in house if they could buy them in?

Back to the E, the actual parts they made specific to the car were few – primarily the body panels/chassis, the interior fittings with most of the major engine components – block/head/crankshaft/so on and the suspension pieces. You can’t buy any of those parts remanufactured to any quality and some are NLA. The tools do wear out and it’s hard to buy a Coupe glass from Pilkingtons that’s fits well even though I think they were original suppliers.

Even the bonnets supplied by Jaguar (this is the whole front of the car) need a day or two of fettling and adjustment to fit properly because their tools are worn out in my opinion. To be fair, they were always fettled to some extent in period. To be more accurate here, Abbey Panels made most of Jaguar's bodywork in period but they were so linked that we should call them in house. The quality was never that good and to make them look as gorgeous as all Jaguars do😉, they didn't fill them but used 'lead loading' which is sort of melting lead onto the panels to be sanded down later. Some of them came out with more lead on them than a church roof!

Any other panels from pattern part makers are usually such a bad fit that it’s necessary to adjust them a lot – this would be the equivalent to a Bestfit part but with very low quality.

Taking a sixties Omega, apart from mainsprings, hairsprings, jewels and shock system, I suspect everything was made in house (or at Lemania.. ). For me, it's a different scenario.

Right, I've gone on a bit (sorry) and am off to have dinner but might write something about batch manufacturing later. Interesting discussion and I wish I could see an easy solution.

Cheers, Chris

Hi Al,
this whisper has been circulating for some months in Europe. My contacts at Swatch Group are reticent, but they do not deny this possibility either.
I tend to agree with Robert: the part accounts are going to be cut off in the foreseeble future.
I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Cheers,
Maurice

That's a good point about the springs, Al. I'm sure I got a 60s spring that was identical, likely a 565. Now it may just be that those from that era are nothing as special as the 1120 (heck, I bought an Omega one of those and did not notice the maker). I was not aware that Swatch owned Nivarox so will bear that in mind.

On the Timken bearing front, yes these would just gave been selected from a catalogue. The technology involved is beyond most manufacturing concerns to be honest. We still select, in aircraft, anything like this from a makers catalogue. That includes other fittings such as rose jointed rod ends. Preferred suppliers include Sarma who are probably the most prolific. I was working on something some years ago where the company decided to design and make their own rod ends with proprietary spherical bearings. This might not seem a difficult task but Sarma have all the background, testing and experience. About a year later when time was short, they were off to Sarma, cap in hand, to try and get what they wanted from stock before it delayed the project... It just wasn't worth the R&D outlay.

Some of the processes that you've mentioned in the Timken discussion are what should be telling us that remanufacture of parts is not trivial. I know these sort of parts don't have the same critical requirements but there are a hell of a lot of things to think of.

By the way, here is the official Jaguars spares book page for the rear hub bearings, Jaguar part C15230. They even kindly give the Timken part number. To a bearing man, the long list of shims are obviously to adjust the end float. Too tight and they overheat and fail, too loose and the wheel is wobbling about. It doesn't help that on a Jaguar IRS, the halfshaft/hub is the upper wishbone. Loose bearings mean loose handling. You may see some of my marks in the margin...



Regards, Chris

Hi everyone,

Well I am starting to see how the automotive differs from the watch material, thanks for the details.

Having absorbed all the information, I am still driven back to the BestFit Watch Material supplier, which seems to duplicate for the watch world what the automotive industry does.

I came across this site:

www.bestfitmaterial.com

and it looks like it's the modern version of my two BestFit manuals.

Don't know more than than, but if you look at the demos on their site, it could be the answer we need as far as parts availability.

Other than Perrins in Canada I know of no other watch material supplier where I can look through my BestFit catalogue, find the part I need, and order it with the BestFit number. I used to do that all the time with Perrins, but here in the EU it doesn't seem to be recognized...strange given that it's a Swiss company (I believe)?

Regarding the parts accounts for Omega (Swatch) is an independent watchmaker who has a parts account prohibited from selling parts to outsiders? or are they free to buy all the parts they like, and re-sell to whoever they please?

Rob

Hello Rob

I saw that site before but, as you say, it's just a database. I couldn't find any supplier so assumed that this was just a list of parts that used to be made. I remember searching Cousins for Bestfit and there were 10 or 20 hits only. Would be interesting to see if there is someone in Europe but I'd never heard of Perrins either. Well found.

I'm assuming all of this will take some time to hit as the big stockists will have some stock for a while. Let's hope so.

Regards, Chris