Speedmaster pushers: how stiff?

M'Bob · Aug 21, 2020

SpeedyPhill
no idea... but if a pusher fails ( even falls off ), it tends to be the lower pusher ! 👎

Archer
Since the pushers are identical in every way between the top and bottom,. I'm not sure this has any credence.

True, but what’s not identical is how both pushers are situated on the wrist.

Since most people wear their watches on the dorsal side of the wrist, and function most often in a pronated position (palm down), it is conceivable that the lower pusher might be in a position to get caught, bumped or snagged more often than the upper pusher. Mind you, this has never happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening to anyone, but if I were forced to choose at gunpoint which of the two would be more vulnerable to loss, I would pick the bottom one. Perhaps @SpeedyPhill can expound on his statement.

Archer · Aug 21, 2020

M'Bob
Since most people wear their watches on the dorsal side of the wrist, and function most often in a pronated position (palm down), it is conceivable that the lower pusher might be in a position to get caught, bumped or snagged more often than the upper pusher.

Not sure I see the logic here...they both appear to have equal exposure to me.

IMO the one most likely to come unscrewed or fall off, the the one the watch maker didn't tighten properly, or forgot to put the Loctite on the threads of the cap screw.

M'Bob · Aug 21, 2020

Archer
Not sure I see the logic here...they both appear to have equal exposure to me.

The lower pusher caps on my chronos appear to have more scuffs than my uppers, but I’m sure you’ve seen more of these than I have.

mjb · Aug 21, 2020

I just tried it, and yes, they do require a bit of effort (I really hadn't paid any attention to it until now). From my best recollection, the Rolex Daytona isn't quite as stiff, requires less effort, but then I can never read the time on a Daytona which is why I no longer have one.

I bought a Sinn once, and that had some stiff operation, let me tell you! Those Germans must think we're all muscle men or something. It made me appreciate Swiss watches all the more.

Archer · Aug 21, 2020

M'Bob
The lower pusher caps on my chronos appear to have more scuffs than my uppers, but I’m sure you’ve seen more of these than I have.

Interesting. The degree of scuffing on each pusher is not something I typically pat attention to to be honest.

Looking at the Speedmaster I have on my wrist right now, I replaced the pushers maybe 6 years ago...bottom pusher has no marks, and the top has two small scuffs.

Archer · Aug 21, 2020

mjb
I just tried it, and yes, they do require a bit of effort (I really hadn't paid any attention to it until now). From my best recollection, the Rolex Daytona isn't quite as stiff, requires less effort, but then I can never read the time on a Daytona which is why I no longer have one.

I bought a Sinn once, and that had some stiff operation, let me tell you! Those Germans must think we're all muscle men or something. It made me appreciate Swiss watches all the more.

Hmmm. What Sinn was it? The typically use ETA 7750's, so the movement was likely Swiss.

gdupree · Aug 21, 2020

M'Bob
Very hard to quantify this.

I measured pretty easily by pressing the pusher slowly against a scale and watched how high the read-out it gets until it clicks.

But my scale is accurate to .005 lbs to a capacity of 150lbs. But any kitchen scale should do the job if it has a capacity of 4lbs or more. As I mentioned, mine click between 3-4lbs. Would be interested if others are much different than that.

M'Bob · Aug 21, 2020

Archer
Looking at the Speedmaster I have on my wrist right now, I replaced the pushers maybe 6 years ago...bottom pusher has no marks, and the top has two small scuffs.

Could be occupational or recreational dependent; curious what others find if they take a look.

Gruesome · Aug 21, 2020

This is actually a pet peeve of mine. I'm a bit disappointed how unequal the initial start and the stop/restart forces are on the chronographs I have tried.

I measured the Start/stop-start-stop/reset forces pushing the watch down on a scale, with the pusher perpendicular to the scale surface:
Start/stop-start-stop/reset
Speedmaster co-axial 9300 1700 gram /1200 gram /1400 gram
IWC Portugieser 3716 1300/800/1400
Alpha Seagull ST19 1500/900/500
All errors +- 50 gram.
I think the 7750 is worse than all of them, but mine is disassembled right now, so I can't measure it.

Even though the IWC and Omega reset force is about the same, the IWC reset feels a bit crisper. The IWC stop feels a bit soft, but I like the start/stop combination best on the IWC. The IWC reset also feels the crispest/most defined.

The gram force unit used to be called 'pond' (with the weight force of a kilogram mass at standard earth gravitational acceleration being a kilopond), but that is a long time ago. 102 ponds is about a newton.

I think watch makers (the companies that make watches) should pay more attention to equalizing these forces. Al might correct me, but I don't think much can be done by lubrication or polishing, it is mostly about designing the right lever arm ratios into the watch.

I'd be interested to see more measurements.

Archer · Aug 22, 2020

Gruesome
I think watch makers (the companies that make watches) should pay more attention to equalizing these forces. Al might correct me, but I don't think much can be done by lubrication or polishing, it is mostly about designing the right lever arm ratios into the watch.

Since the two pushers operate completely different mechanisms, it's not really expected that they should have the same forces. Kind of like saying the gas, brake, and clutch pedals in a car don't feel the same - it's because they perform completely different operations.

I'm not sure "lever arm ratios" are going to be helpful in resolving this. About the only thing you could do is take the larger force pusher as your reference, and increase the spring in the pusher for the weaker force to make it match. Then they would both be hard to push.

Even then, the pushers would have the same force, but would feel different, as again they are performing very different operations.

Keep in mind that some of the watches you mention are resetting different things - some are 2 register chronographs and some are 3. On a Speedmaster with 321/861/1861, most of the force is from resetting the hour recorder, so a 320, 860, or 930 (no hour recorder) is going to feel completely different to reset than the 321/861/861.

There are two stages to the reset on these, as I show in this video with my 861:

The first part is simply moving a tiny pin called the "stem bolt for hammer" out of the way, and this allows the spring loaded hammer to drop and reset the minutes and seconds recording hands. I've done this above by only pressing the button part way in. When the watch is flipped over, you see the hour recorder has not reset, and this happens when the pusher is pressed in to a greater depth. The parts for the minutes and seconds are on the back of the movement, and the hour recorder parts are under the dial.

Cheers, Al

Gruesome · Aug 22, 2020

Thanks as always for the details, Al!
What mostly bothers me is the difference between the first start, and subsequent stops and starts. Now I'm fully aware we are not buying these watches to time stuff, but still, this is a practical deficiency.

I assume the first start has to lift the reset hammers away from the reset cardioids (or whatever they might be called) and engage the clutch, and subsequent stops and starts just move the clutch (and maybe engage and disengage brakes?), but why can't Omega and IWC, when they are already designing new movements, engineer it so the actual start and stop (and restart) force is the same? There could be a 'pre-load' action to clear the reset, or a spring assist for this function; I understand you don't want to make the first start feel sloppy, so it could be a bit tricky; but hey, that's why they are paid the big bucks in Switzerland.

How was this problem solved on mechanical stop watches, where it did matter?

janice&fred · Aug 22, 2020

Maybe there will be optional equipment like "power assisted pushers", with a dedicated battery discretely located to the side of the movement. Sort of like power steering and brakes in cars.

Theluglife · Aug 22, 2020

Cam vs column wheel chronographs. Normal of the 861/1861 to need a harder push and have a sharp, distinct click to it.

Archer · Aug 23, 2020

Gruesome
but still, this is a practical deficiency.

Is it? How so?

I'll be honest, in all the years I've been on watch forums, this is the first time anyone has brought up the issue of the start and stop forces being different as a problem that I've seen. Pretty much all discussions surround the difference between the feel of cam and column wheel chronographs.

Gruesome
I assume the first start has to lift the reset hammers away from the reset cardioids (or whatever they might be called) and engage the clutch, and subsequent stops and starts just move the clutch (and maybe engage and disengage brakes?),

Yes.

Gruesome
but why can't Omega and IWC, when they are already designing new movements, engineer it so the actual start and stop (and restart) force is the same?

You would have to ask them, but my guess is because it's not important.

Gruesome
How was this problem solved on mechanical stop watches, where it did matter?

Do you have measurements of forces on stop watches? The only one I have handy is a Minerva, and the forces for the initial start are higher than they are to stop. Then they are pretty even if you just start and stop repeatedly. The differences are dramatic enough I don't need to measure it to know they are different. So I'm not sure that anything is different with an actual stop watch than it is with a chronograph wrist watch.

My use of stop watches for actual work was limited to when I worked a short stint in industrial engineering, doing time studies. Back then we had clip boards with two stop watches on them - one was always running to time the event that was happening, and one was stopped while I noted down the time, then reset it, ready to stop the one that was running and start this one to time another event. I'm right handed so was writing with my right hand and all the stop watch work is done with the left hand, that is also holding the clip board. It was awkward and takes some getting used to doing, but the last thing on my mind was the forces required to start, stop, and reset the watches. I was far too busy observing the worker, writing down what they were doing and how long it took them, and performance rating their level of work. This had real world implications for pay rates and incentive programs in a unionized environment, so accuracy was important.

It's only my own personal experience, but the forces involved for the watches were a non-issue.

Cheers, Al

janice&fred · Aug 23, 2020

Archer
I'll be honest, in all the years I've been on watch forums, this is the first time anyone has brought up the issue of the start and stop forces being different as a problem that I've seen.

Keep in mind it's Sunday morning and the day is young 😁

Archer · Aug 23, 2020

janice&fred
Keep in mind it's Sunday morning and the day is young 😁

Simply making the point that this is not a common complaint, so I doubt that watch companies consider it something to be "solved"...

M'Bob · Aug 23, 2020

Archer
Simply making the point that this is not a common complaint, so I doubt that watch companies consider it something to be "solved"...

Well they should. The general lack of hand and finger strength that are plaguing society on an ever increasing basis is only second in urgency to the Covid crisis. If these companies don’t get on board and lighten the force needed on these pushers, they will very likely soon be losing a significant customer base.

Archer · Aug 23, 2020

M'Bob
Well they should. The general lack of hand and finger strength that are plaguing society on an ever increasing basis is only second in urgency to the Covid crisis. If these companies don’t get on board and lighten the force needed on these pushers, they will very likely soon be losing a significant customer base.

You should start a "Hand and finger strength telethon" sometimes soon.

M'Bob · Aug 23, 2020

Archer
You should start a "Hand and finger strength telethon" sometimes soon.

Moot point since Jerry Lewis is no longer with us...

Archer · Aug 23, 2020

M'Bob
Moot point since Jerry Lewis is no longer with us...

I'm sure you would do a fine job hosting, Bob...

Speedmaster pushers: how stiff?

M'Bob

Archer

M'Bob

mjb

Archer

Archer

gdupree

M'Bob

Gruesome

Archer

Gruesome

janice&fred

Theluglife

Archer

janice&fred

Archer

M'Bob

Archer

M'Bob

Archer

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