Speedmaster 105.003 w/ an unoriginal Soleil Dial - A strong result?

OneTwo · Feb 18, 2024

Was perusing over on eBay and came across a unique/strange Speedmaster on auction (eBay item #196237209618) that caught my eye, purely because of the dial. The watch was advertised as a Blue "Soleil" Dial 105.003-65 Ed White. The auction ended earlier today and I wanted to wait until it was over before posting to ensure I didn't potentially highlight an auction that could have gone under the radar and make sure no feathers were ruffled by posting. I was not in the market to bid, nor do I have any affiliation with the seller but thought I'd post for the sake of discussion.

I won't say much about it as I'm curious to hear from other members on their reactions to the watch, but I do think there are a couple observations worth noting and maybe it could be a good discussion about an "assembled" 105.003-65.

Here's the seller's description (I added the underline to the not about the dial originality) for those who are curious to read how the seller advertised the watch:
Dial/Hands: Very rare Soleil blue dial. A small number of these have surfaced, but they don’t come up frequently. Dial is not original to the watch. Worst areas are around the center hand post and the Omega logo, see the pic with the chrono running for the logo area. Hands are worn and minute hand is missing lume.

Case: Straight lug symmetrical case has been polished in the distant past. Case shows wear/scratches/dings, but nothing deep or that seems out of place I would pick out that doesn’t match the overall patina. Case back does not show the hippocampus as it was polished away. Flat foot crown.

Bezel: Decent original DON bezel, matches the patina of the watch well

Movement: 321 looks to be in good condition, service history unknown. It winds smoothly and keeps good time, chrono functions work.

Bracelet/Strap: Sold head only, no strap or bracelet is included

Seems to be a pretty honest item description. So let's look at the other photos included in the listing.

Dial is a pre-professional which from other Ed White Blue Soleil dial examples seems to be period correct. It's also equipped with a DON bezel so that ticks another box. I'd say they're both in pretty worn condition, maybe fair to poor for the sake of a standard descriptor.

Case sides appear to be re-finished / re-brushed.

Case back appears to be re-finished / re-brushed as there is no Hippocampus visible.

Side note, looks like the seller has a @Pahawi case opener. Maybe I'm wrong but if it is, cool to see in the wild.

From lists I've previously seen(speedmaster101, db1983, etc.), a 22,824,XXX is just on the early side for a -65 but I could be mistaken as I'm not well versed in these ed whites. Any thoughts?

And the result:

IMHO, pretty strong result for what some may call a "project" watch (no offense intended) that the seller admittedly described as "dial not original to the watch" and in what looks to be a Fair to Poor condition. But hey, maybe it's not considering the dial.

What do you think OF? Did any one of our members end up with the winning bid?

padders · Feb 18, 2024

As you say that serial is very early for a -65, too early in fact. More likely from a -64 or from another model such as a Seamaster. Its about 3k under the accepted range.

The wide Ts and short indices have always suggested to me that these dials were made no earlier than 1968-9, perhaps later even, so are a replacement on any watch made earlier. Indeed these may have never been factory fit at all but a small batch of service dials or samples.

Davidt · Feb 18, 2024

As @padders says, isn’t the general consensus that these dials are all service items and not original to any watch

Donn Chambers · Feb 18, 2024

I wouldn’t pay that much for this very tired example just because it has a “rare” blue dial, especially that one in such poor condition. But there’s a sucker born every minute.

ibis888 · Feb 18, 2024

Movement looks pretty hacked up as well? Lots of screwdrivers marks etc.

And while rare, how much value does that dial have with all of the damage?

140dave · Feb 18, 2024

ibis888
And while rare, how much value does that dial have with all of the damage?

I haven’t seen too many of these, like most of us, but many of these dials show significant wear and flaking.

Davidt
As @padders says, isn’t the general consensus that these dials are all service items and not original to any watch

Is it? I still see 2 distinct camps of opinions on this. For the record, I don’t know, both make good arguments.

I would have liked it, as a placeholder/oddity, but at about 50% of the final bid.

Evitzee · Feb 18, 2024

Just a very unattractive watch to my eyes. I know many people love the honest, 'lived in' look of a vintage watch, but this one is too tired, it's an old, damaged watch.

padders · Feb 18, 2024

140dave
I haven’t seen too many of these, like most of us, but many of these dials show significant wear and flaking.

Is it? I still see 2 distinct camps of opinions on this. For the record, I don’t know, both make good arguments.

I would have liked it, as a placeholder/oddity, but at about 50% of the final bid.

What’s your view or gut feeling on the originality of these? I concede there could be originals in this era and I believe there are extracts that suggest this but my feeling is that they were not reliable blind extracts but something less dependable.

keepsonticking · Feb 18, 2024

Service dial. More importantly, badly damaged and ugly.

140dave · Feb 18, 2024

padders
What’s your view on the originality of these? I concede there could be originals in this era and I believe there are extracts that suggest this but my feeling is that they were not reliable blind extracts but something less dependable.

I honestly have an open mind on them. They could be original to some, some may have been done as service dials, I don’t know. But like you, an extract doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.

Regardless of original or service, I think they are cool looking and rare, I’d like one in my collection personally. Just not this one. 😎

Davidt · Feb 18, 2024

140dave
I haven’t seen too many of these, like most of us, but many of these dials show significant wear and flaking.

Is it? I still see 2 distinct camps of opinions on this. For the record, I don’t know, both make good arguments.

I would have liked it, as a placeholder/oddity, but at about 50% of the final bid.

Sorry, I wasn’t talking about all soleil dials, specifically the wide T versions on straight lugs. I don’t see how they could be original, especially on such an early serial.

The narrow T dials on straight lugs could be original but they’re so few and far between and there’s such scant evidence to validate them being original dials (I agree the extracts are pretty much worthless), there’s no way I could pay such a premium for one even if I could afford to.

140dave · Feb 18, 2024

Davidt
Sorry, I wasn’t talking about all soleil dials, specifically the wide T versions on straight lugs. I don’t see how they could be original, especially on such an early serial.

Heh, no apologies, it was a reading comprehension issue on my side lol. Yes, agreed 👍

OneTwo · Feb 18, 2024

padders
The wide Ts and short indices have always suggested to me that these dials were made no earlier than 1968-9, perhaps later even, so are a replacement on any watch made earlier. Indeed these may have never been factory fit at all but a small batch of service dials or samples.

Doh! Appreciate you bringing this up. I forgot to mention in my initial post that the "T SWISS T" also looked later to me but what really had me thinking age relationship of the the dial and the reference year was later than the watch was the typeface of the "Speedmaster" font. The design of the S and the relationship of the S to P looks much later than than the pre-professional dial Speedmaster typeface. Looks more close to a 145.022-69 than any of the earlier pre -69 examples.

Seaborg · Feb 18, 2024

Mine says hi.

And yes, definitly a service dial. Mine is originaly a 2915. It was serviced many times by Omega at Bienne in its past, and most of the original parts were swapped during Omega service.

By the way, I think the one of the OP was very, very cheap...
These dials are fantastic, pure beauties "in the flesh" but notoriously hard to capture in pictures. Such a bargain at that price...

Evitzee · Feb 18, 2024

Seaborg
Mine says hi.

And yes, definitly a service dial. Mine is originaly a 2915. It was serviced many times by Omega at Bienne in its past, and most of the original parts were swapped during Omega service.

Nice looking watch. Was the blue soleil dial an option that was offered to you at the time of a service by Omega, or was a blue dial original when it left the factory the first time?

samweldspoorly · Feb 18, 2024

I was watching this auction too. Thanks for posting this to discuss.

Seaborg · Feb 18, 2024

Evitzee
Nice looking watch. Was the blue soleil dial an option that was offered to you at the time of a service by Omega, or was a blue dial original when it left the factory the first time?

Thanks ! As I said, my watch was originaly a 2915, so had radium dial and hands. The dial was swapped in the late 60's I think. So it is a SERVICE dial.

Spacefruit · Feb 18, 2024

It is very hard to know if the dials are original from factory or not. In my opinion there are both factory built watches, and put-togethers such as the OP watch. There are also several footless dials from sample books, and this may be one.

The values of good condition dialed watches are very high. When there is damage like the OP watch it is a novelty, and I think the value should be down at novelty levels, or at least at the level where the rest of the watch justifies the bulk of the valuation, and the dial is an add on. Valuing the OP watch on this basis I might come up with a value for the watch without the dial at less than half the sale price, plus the dial.

I think there are so few of these, that the potential buyers might get over exited by the prospect of owning such a rare dial. Certainly that has happened to me. And they might have had a good month financially, and feel flush. When you have just two people like this, the market gets distorted.

In the cold light of day, this dial is damaged and while interesting, and rare, it will lose attraction for me if it gets too expensive.

As for origins. The museum gave extracts confirming the originality of the dials on some watches. There are multiple variations in indices length and Pro / Non Pro dials. There are some collectors who expect to see dial configurations that correspond to the balck dial versions, but we have seen so few of these that is a hard conclusion to confirm with evidence. Like many things, it makes sense, but only hindsight, rather than evidence.

Here is my 105.003

Minor dial damage that hardly shows in real life.

We can debate the veracity of the extract after Phillips/Omega attempted deception, but so far we do see several "Silvered Dial" extracts. Most I have seen have been delivered to the UK, but not all.

keepsonticking · Feb 18, 2024

Nothing points to these ever being factory installed on new watches. They are service dials. The only people I know who think they are original are people who own one or two of them. I wonder why.

ibis888 · Feb 18, 2024

Spacefruit
It is very hard to know if the dials are original from factory or not. In my opinion there are both factory built watches, and put-togethers such as the OP watch. There are also several footless dials from sample books, and this may be one.

The values of good condition dialed watches are very high. When there is damage like the OP watch it is a novelty, and I think the value should be down at novelty levels, or at least at the level where the rest of the watch justifies the bulk of the valuation, and the dial is an add on. Valuing the OP watch on this basis I might come up with a value for the watch without the dial at less than half the sale price, plus the dial.

I think there are so few of these, that the potential buyers might get over exited by the prospect of owning such a rare dial. Certainly that has happened to me. And they might have had a good month financially, and feel flush. When you have just two people like this, the market gets distorted.

In the cold light of day, this dial is damaged and while interesting, and rare, it will lose attraction for me if it gets too expensive.

As for origins. The museum gave extracts confirming the originality of the dials on some watches. There are multiple variations in indices length and Pro / Non Pro dials. There are some collectors who expect to see dial configurations that correspond to the balck dial versions, but we have seen so few of these that is a hard conclusion to confirm with evidence. Like many things, it makes sense, but only hindsight, rather than evidence.

Here is my 105.003

Minor dial damage that hardly shows in real life.

We can debate the veracity of the extract after Phillips/Omega attempted deception, but so far we do see several "Silvered Dial" extracts. Most I have seen have been delivered to the UK, but not all.

Stunning watch! And thank you for the fascinating information.

Speedmaster 105.003 w/ an unoriginal Soleil Dial - A strong result?

OneTwo

padders

Davidt

Donn Chambers

ibis888

140dave

Evitzee

padders

keepsonticking

140dave

Davidt

140dave

OneTwo

Seaborg

Evitzee

samweldspoorly

Seaborg

Spacefruit

keepsonticking

ibis888

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