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So, who is "going" to the Watches of Knightsbridge Sale today?

Lucasssssss
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
WOK fee is 24% including UK VAT of 20%, which is charged only on the premium and only if the watch is delivered in UK.

Being sad, I mean isolated, I added up the total sale: they sold in total £616,200 of watches, before premium.

Their premium gives them an income of £123,240

Assuming all the watches delivered in UK the HMRC get just under £25,000 from the premiums, but they will also get some VAT from traders who will have a VAT liability on their profits.

Now the total low estimate of all the watches totaled £839,500. So WOK sales were 27% under the total of all the low estimates.

But if you add only the low estimate totals of the lots sold, that is £554,200 meaning of the lots sold, in total they beat the low estimates by 10%.

I have not done the same exercise on previous WOK sales, nor any other house, and lets hope in future I dont have the time on my hands to do so....

To sell over £600k of watches in this environment is quite an achievement I think.

To add to this they add 12.5%+VAT for consignors, so they also earnt £77,025 from the consignors (assuming none negotiated). I also imagine they charge a small unsold lot charge.

So about £200,265 of income for the sale all in.
 
JohnSteed
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So seller + buyer each pays a fee to WoK ??? And fees on both sides included in final price?

Whatever the case some of us are the reason ppl sell to these scam artists. We quibble way too much on many FS listings. Call out fakes certainly (but OF mods mostly eliminate fakes anyway).

Collectors causing other collectors to take the brunt of price gouging.
 
queriver
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JanV JanV
Don’t forget to retract the approx 20% hammer (or even more) required to be paid by the seller also.
I was referring to the overall cost to the buyer, i.e. hammer plus commission, and comparing that with the JR asking prices of an OF dealer last year. Yes there's a higher buy/sell spread at auction.

Some might argue bidders are willing to pay more at a "name" auction house but I'd argue that premium would not be significant when it's an online-only auction where bidders take a risk by relying on the crappy photos and descriptions auction houses use that some of us have commented about before. AFAIK you don't even get a glossy auction catalogue to go with the Japan Racing you just bought.
 
JohnSteed
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Yes @killer67 ... I think that’s correct...18.5!!!! Then there’s the one that got away, now on analogsht, now at 30k hahaha

For any new collectors....Buy from a dealer only if you know what the hell you’re doing. And you won’t know what you’re looking at or doing. For me, that’s Speedys, Seamasters, Connies \ maybe couple others? Although do admit I’ve taken a chance with watch ‘dealers’ not members here. Worked out well once, the other cost me more than should.....

If you want something..,.post in the wanted to buy section here on Omega Forums ... first. Chances are a collector may want to sell to you. Be patient.

... eBay may work okay for buyers ... sometimes/most times? However, ..., eBay can be a nightmare for sellers, a total nightmare as others have testified here and there.

Consigning to sell on a WoK or other platform could be a path forward so long as we do and write things here on OF that take a piss on sellers (you know who you freekin are). But to think auctioneers take a fee from buyer and seller!!!!! That’s free money, some may deem a necessity.....If I get to superstar status I won’t change hahaha.....Moderators should consider a consignment service. OF is a trusted, mature place to find out about watches and to find/buy watches.

Carry on smartly ....
 
Spacefruit
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Just to clear up something

most auction houses do have a sellers commission listed and available to them, up to 10 %. This is largely ignored other than for difficult (High maintenance ) private consignors. Often this premium once settled is in the region of 0 to 5%.

it’s the only part of the fee structure that they have control over, as negotiating the buyers premium is illegal in USA - perhaps elsewhere too.

Some auction houses also negotiate a “Success fee”, a percentage of the sale over the high estimate, though I have no first hand knowledge of it.
 
padders
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
Just to clear up something

most auction houses do have a sellers commission listed and available to them, up to 10 %. This is largely ignored other than for difficult (High maintenance ) private consignors. Often this premium once settled is in the region of 0 to 5%.

it’s the only part of the fee structure that they have control over, as negotiating the buyers premium is illegal in USA - perhaps elsewhere too.

Some auction houses also negotiate a “Success fee”, a percentage of the sale over the high estimate, though I have no first hand knowledge of it.
I have no first hand knowledge of WOK but the seller fees at some of the provincial houses can be rather higher than those you suggest above. Fellows for instance will charge Joe Public circa 20% once the marketing fee, loss/liability charge and VAT are included on items below £3k, falling to nearer 17.5% above that level. This is clearly stated in their terms. This drops to ~10% for trade but unless you are consigning hundreds of items (like the pawnbrokers do to wash pledges) the seller fee stays at that level and isn’t often waived. Gardiner Houlgate and John Pye are similar I believe. I have seen them swallow some of the fee to sell an item below the reserve at times but it isn’t a given.
Edited:
 
Spacefruit
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padders padders
I have no first hand knowledge of WOK but the seller fees at some of the provincial houses can be rather higher than those you suggest above. Fellows for instance will charge Joe Public circa 20% once the marketing fee, loss/liability charge and VAT are included on items below £3k, falling to nearer 17.5% above that level. This is clearly stated in their terms. This drops to ~10% for trade but unless you are consigning hundreds of items (like the pawnbrokers do to wash pledges) the seller fee stays at that level and isn’t often waived. Gardiner Houlgate and John Pye are similar I believe. I have seen them swallow some of the fee to sell an item below the reserve at times but it isn’t a given.

The auctioneers you refer to are selling a much lower average lot price, and I would argue offering more of a disposal service rather than a value added marketing. (I suspect that Fellows in particular might dispute that, but the average lot price doesnt lie).

So the disposal type houses are working on lower unit sales, and still have to pay the expenses so I am not surprised they charge the sellers so strongly. They need to - much more work for less money.

In my own experience Christies Phillips Sothebys only charge a seller if they either dont like them, dont like the lot, or its a government agency staffed be people who dont care or are naive. Waiving the sellers fee is the only financial negotiation tool they have that is legal.
 
padders
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
The auctioneers you refer to are selling a much lower average lot price, and I would argue offering more of a disposal service rather than a value added marketing. (I suspect that Fellows in particular might dispute that, but the average lot price doesnt lie).

So the disposal type houses are working on lower unit sales, and still have to pay the expenses so I am not surprised they charge the sellers so strongly. They need to - much more work for less money.

In my own experience Christies Phillips Sothebys only charge a seller if they either dont like them, dont like the lot, or its a government agency staffed be people who dont care or are naive. Waiving the sellers fee is the only financial negotiation tool they have that is legal.
Fair enough, was just pointing out that not every sellers experience will be similar to that you described unless they make the effort to deal with a big player which probably means a trip to London or other capital city. The AQ Ultraman for instance may have done better at one of those you list. Might I politely add that the kind of lot you might be used to selling may put you into a bracket more in keeping with a higher volume/ higher value seller than many, which may mean you have had an easier ride than some as your lots would presumably be rather more desirable to an auction house then a one off noob seller who as you suggest can be troublesome to deal with.
 
Vanallard
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Peemacgee Peemacgee
I agree, I actually liked the unusual deluxe dial a lot - and the watch was generally a very nice dress watch - just not £3,500 of very nice, at the lower estimate, IMHO.

I contacted WoK to see if the consignor of the deluxe Constellation was accepting offers for the watch and was advised that the lowest/best price is £2500 plus buyer’s fee. Still a bit high IMO when factoring in the fee and customs/taxes but I thought I’d share the info in case someone else was interested.
 
jsducote
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dsacks30 dsacks30
And now it looks like the passed lots are currently listed on Chrono24:

https://www.chrono24.com/search/index.htm?customerId=14088&dosearch=true

Is this their typical practice? Just comparing a few of the watches they currently have listed against the pre-auction estimates, they are listing them toward the very upper end of their estimates. No bargains here.
I wasn't aware that they listed on Chrono24, but I don't think your assessment is accurate for all of them. The Heuer 2447T, for example, is for sale at $4879. Converted to GBP, that's £3917. Divide by 1.3 (30% hammer fee) and you get £3013. The low estimate was £3000.
Minor differences attributable to FX fluctuation. So, not a bargain, but not the high-end estimate either.

The Heuer "up & down" (which passed for a second time) is $1626 = £1305 = £1003 + 30% -- low estimate was $1000.
 
dsacks30
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jsducote jsducote
I wasn't aware that they listed on Chrono24, but I don't think your assessment is accurate for all of them. The Heuer 2447T, for example, is for sale at $4879. Converted to GBP, that's £3917. Divide by 1.3 (30% hammer fee) and you get £3013. The low estimate was £3000.
Minor differences attributable to FX fluctuation. So, not a bargain, but not the high-end estimate either.

The Heuer "up & down" (which passed for a second time) is $1626 = £1305 = £1003 + 30% -- low estimate was $1000.

Good point, I was just eyeballing the prices against the catalogue but didn't work out the exact math. I stand corrected. When taking into account USD to GBP conversion and the 30 percent hammer fee it looks as though most Chrono24 listings have been priced almost exactly at the low range of the estimate (I did this calculation with the gold Omega Constellation, the gold Breitling 815, and the UG Polerouter in rose gold).

I still think the pricing is a bit aggressive with respect to the three aforementioned watches.
 
bgrisso
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dsacks30 dsacks30
And now it looks like the passed lots are currently listed on Chrono24:

https://www.chrono24.com/search/index.htm?customerId=14088&dosearch=true

Is this their typical practice? Just comparing a few of the watches they currently have listed against the pre-auction estimates, they are listing them toward the very upper end of their estimates. No bargains here.

I've seen this before, I think it's standard. I have never checked on the C24 pricing vs the WOK pricing.
 
cristos71
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Jeez, what a business model, first the reserve is too high and because of this they don't sell. Then list on CH24 for the price they didn't sell at in the first place plus commission.

Hmm, that's really going to get the buyers flooding in. And as a seller you could be waiting years to eventually see a sale.
 
jsducote
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dsacks30 dsacks30
I still think the pricing is a bit aggressive with respect to the three aforementioned watches.
Yes, and that's part of the larger discussion being had in this thread. I'm on the fence whether the "market" price has any influence on what I'm interested in and/or buying. For some things, absolutely not going to pay ridiculous sums of money. But on the other hand, I don't consider myself a collector and I'm not buying for the monetary appreciation. My own enjoyment (and budgetary tolerance) plays a bigger part than whether something is overpriced or a good deal at any given time.
 
Peemacgee
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Vanallard Vanallard
I contacted WoK to see if the consignor of the deluxe Constellation was accepting offers for the watch and was advised that the lowest/best price is £2500 plus buyer’s fee. Still a bit high IMO when factoring in the fee and customs/taxes but I thought I’d share the info in case someone else was interested.

Thanks for sharing this.
£2,500 would make it approx £3,100 ‘out of the door’. (Not including any taxes you might have to pay if it’s a non-EU sale.
As I’ve said, I’ve got nothing against this watch as it’s a very pretty dress watch.
However, that’s still collectors’ area pricing, at auction, and this is not a collector’s piece.
I would say it’s probably a £2,500 watch to a collector.
I guess the problem is that it could be a five grand watch in Burlington Arcade or (formerly) the Strand.
 
Vanallard
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Peemacgee Peemacgee
Thanks for sharing this.
£2,500 would make it approx £3,100 ‘out of the door’. (Not including any taxes you might have to pay if it’s a non-EU sale.
As I’ve said, I’ve got nothing against this watch as it’s a very pretty dress watch.
However, that’s still collectors’ area pricing, at auction, and this is not a collector’s piece.
I would say it’s probably a £2,500 watch to a collector.
I guess the problem is that it could be a five grand watch in Burlington Arcade or (formerly) the Strand.

Agreed - I had offered £2000 plus the buyer’s fee, which comes out to ~£2500. If only one could contact the consignors directly 😡
 
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