Community Stories

So, how many 2915’s will crawl out......?

tyrantlizardrex
Posts
8,888
Likes
28,353
micampe micampe
I know nothing about Speedmasters but I have a question: that design registration photo shows a dial that is also missing the “Speedmaster” script and the two dots at 12 o’clock so if that is the design of the original transfer plates does that also mean that the first dials were also missing those features?

Similarly unfamiliar.

The caption under the photo does appear to say that it's a prototype...
 
micampe
Posts
1,626
Likes
6,218
tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
The caption under the photo does appear to say that it's a prototype...
It also says “[something] cadran n’est pas encore definie”, “[…] dial not yet defined”.
 
jimmyd13
Posts
3,170
Likes
7,320
micampe micampe
I know nothing about Speedmasters but I have a question: that design registration photo shows a dial that is also missing the “Speedmaster” script and the two dots at 12 o’clock so if that is the design of the original transfer plates does that also mean that the first dials were also missing those features?
tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Similarly unfamiliar.

The caption under the photo does appear to say that it's a prototype...
We need a Swiss patent attorney. Is there a Swiss Lawyer in the house?

The caption in MWO indeed says that the photo is of a prototype. That seems an acceptable description as the document is dated 1956 and also considering the missing script on the dial and different bezel.

Now, what I don't know and would love to ask someone with the right background is the requirement of registering a design in Switzerland. Is the registration document intended to give protection to the shape and layout of the watch? We see most of the elements in the photograph. The watch is undoubtedly an assembled case, dial and hands. As the movement has a hacking minute sub register then it could even be a complete watch with a movement (going on the position of the hands). Obviously lacking are the name and the detail on the bezel. For those reasons, I'm going to suggest that this dial is not as intended for the end product. Rather, it is a pre-production mock up of the final dial.

I've looked up the Swiss patent office and details of registered designs but there is a lack of information regarding the detail required in the submitted materials. In other words, it doesn't say if differences in production models are enough to lose the protection offered by registering a design. The only thing mentioned regarding differences are those of colour. An design registered in greyscale will cover all designs in other colours. I can't be sure what protection is granted and how minor changes in design will affect that protection. Of course, this may not be the only document submitted to the Patent Office and there may be a new document for every change made. It seems the cost of doing this is negligible.

I know what my best guess is but it's only a best guess and not worth writing here without anything to back it up.

Bottom line, I think, is that we can't say the registration document means that this font was ever used in production models. Of course, it doesn't mean they weren't either and there are a handful of examples that exist with a similar font. Anyone who has one willing to share the serial numbers? Might be the only way to move forward.
 
F
Posts
34
Likes
29
Great analysis and that’s where I started ..can anyone show us some early examples
I have 2 at 15499xxx both styles of O

Thx to Jimmy d
 
Spacefruit
Posts
5,264
Likes
24,040
Vintagewtchzilla Vintagewtchzilla
@Spacefruit

the foto u are looking at is the actual document from omega to register the design of the 2915 so there is no question if this original or not

as u say photo can not be used to make assumptions then i have to ask what is the purpose of your website ? i don't see any official document like production sheet or so, or confirmation from omega that your assumptions are correct of proved by anybody .... ?

Well that proves my point. It’s a prototype and therefore cannot be used as evidence of how a production run watch looked like.

The purpose of my website, as you well know, is to list observations and to gather evidence in one place to help people buy a speedmaster with more knowledge than they would have without it.

😀
 
micampe
Posts
1,626
Likes
6,218
F fireplace
Great analysis and that’s where I started ..can anyone show us some early examples
I have 2 at 15499xxx both styles of O
I guess I’m still missing how you can use that picture as proof that the first design had a round O and ignore the other major differences.
 
jimmyd13
Posts
3,170
Likes
7,320
micampe micampe
I guess I’m still missing how you can use that picture as proof that the first design had a round O and ignore the other major differences.
No-one is.

@fireplace owns two 2915s. The O on each dial is different: one with the accepted oval; the other with a more round version as in the dial of the (let's call it a) design prototype.

The question then arises, can the second type of dial be proven to be original?

Edit to add: perhaps the question should be, we're there a small number of very early dials that carried that rounder O? I can see how it might happen but there is little evidence, and nothing conclusive, that it did.
 
MaiLollo
Posts
1,560
Likes
4,418
jimmyd13 jimmyd13
No-one is.

@fireplace owns two 2915s. The O on each dial is different: one with the accepted oval; the other with a more round version as in the dial of the (let's call it a) design prototype.

The question then arises, can the second type of dial be proven to be original?

Edit to add: perhaps the question should be, we're there a small number of very early dials that carried that rounder O? I can see how it might happen but there is little evidence, and nothing conclusive, that it did.
Dont want to sound like a dick, but if the guy owns one of each 2915 (first off, huge congrats!) then he has (or might have) an agenda: the oval is widely accepted as correct, but he would still benefit from having his second watch deemed correct as well. Obviously I have no idea about what his intentions are, but saying he has no agenda is wrong...
Now, could week-end have a picture of these 2915s ??
 
jimmyd13
Posts
3,170
Likes
7,320
MaiLollo MaiLollo
Dont want to sound like a dick, but if the guy owns one of each 2915 (first off, huge congrats!) then he has (or might have) an agenda: the oval is widely accepted as correct, but he would still benefit from having his second watch deemed correct as well. Obviously I have no idea about what his intentions are, but saying he has no agenda is wrong...
Now, could week-end have a picture of these 2915s ??
We all have an agenda. Mine is that I'm genuinely curious about this and would like a satisfactory answer. Whatever anyone's agenda it doesn't mean the question is without merit.
 
eugeneandresson
Posts
5,040
Likes
15,494
Another $0.02 opinion:

I have no idea what the rear of a 60 year old dial should look like, but certainly round or oval O with or without Speedmaster on the front, they should look similarly aged from behind (especially if made from the same material by same manufacturer at a similar time)?

I trust you have seen or have pics of this from their last services @fireplace ...
 
F
Posts
34
Likes
29
MaiLollo MaiLollo
Dont want to sound like a dick, but if the guy owns one of each 2915 (first off, huge congrats!) then he has (or might have) an agenda: the oval is widely accepted as correct, but he would still benefit from having his second watch deemed correct as well. Obviously I have no idea about what his intentions are, but saying he has no agenda is wrong...
Now, could week-end have a picture of these 2915s ??
Both Watches are “ correct “ both the oval dial and the round dial `o sold as authentic in recent auction but that is not my interest i just want to know which one came first

I have has them for 20 years well before dealers started to mess with Watches to increase their profits and they are a gift for the grand children
This a quite rightly said by Jimmy it’s just an academic point which might be of help to other collectors
 
kov
Posts
4,113
Likes
16,304
tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Curious to learn what techniques the museum has to authenticate whether or not a watch is original as it left the factory, or pulled together out of parts from multiple watches.

Did I say they will be able to confirm the watch left the factory as is or not? Chris, please...

tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Also, given the Seamaster 300 that @kox so diligently researched, I'm not sure I'd trust any dealer with a vested interest to authenticate anything either.

If I am intending to sell a watch (assuming it's coming from my family wealth or is a barn/socks find and is not yet known to the community) and I request a competent dealer for some consulting (i.e. help to authenticate and evaluate my watch) - I don't see how can we talk about vested interest so far.

tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Lets all be straight about this:
The very high prices that we're seeing for some watches (that the rest of the market does not buy/sell those watches for) in the auction houses of Geneve, and Hong Kong are what they are - money laundering in one form or another.

Assuming it's (sad but) true, where's the problem as far as you're not personally involved or harmed in any way?

tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
We can all pretend that something else is going on, but it happens in art, it happens in cars, it happens in antiques, and it also happens in the world of watches.

So what? Gonna punish'em all? :whipped:
 
tyrantlizardrex
Posts
8,888
Likes
28,353
kov kov
Did I say they will be able to confirm the watch left the factory as is or not? Chris, please...



If I am intending to sell a watch (assuming it's coming from my family wealth or is a barn/socks find and is not yet known to the community) and I request a competent dealer for some consulting (i.e. help to authenticate and evaluate my watch) - I don't see how can we talk about vested interest so far.



Assuming it's (sad but) true, where's the problem as far as you're not personally involved or harmed in any way?



So what? Gonna punish'em all? :whipped:

In order:

1 - It's what your post suggested... we know what they can do, they can search the archivies, and IF there's a record, they can tell you that the serial number on the movement started in the watch, or not.

2 - You don't see how a dealer ALWAYS has vested interests?

3 - So it's ok for people to commit crime as long as it doesn't affect you?

4 - You're right. We should just all sit back quietly and not rock the boat, just in case the dealers and the auction houses get upset.
 
U
Posts
25,980
Likes
27,627
@kov - John F. Kennedy once used a quote from Edmund Burke in a speech:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Personally, I'm on Chris' side - if I see something wrong, I will say something. Maybe you come from a country where the culture says it's okay to rip people off, but it's not okay in either mine or Chris' nation. It's not only frowned upon, it's illegal and we have agencies to punish the people who try to bilk, scam, and con money out of our citizens.
 
Spacefruit
Posts
5,264
Likes
24,040
F fireplace
Great analysis and that’s where I started ..can anyone show us some early examples
I have 2 at 15499xxx both styles of O

Thx to Jimmy d
You could start by showing yours?
 
U
Posts
25,980
Likes
27,627
kov kov
where's the problem as far as you're not personally involved or harmed in any way?
So what? Gonna punish'em all? :whipped:

These two lines tell me a LOT about your character, kov - and it's not good. How would you like it if you were a victim and nobody helped you?
 
16 More Posts...
Sign up or log in to reply...

Similar threads

jwk1

Can this be cleaned? If so, how? Many many thanks!!

jwk1 Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
MtV
MtV
Posts
4
Views
1K