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So, how many 2915’s will crawl out......?

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Sorry for banging on a bit but there is also another thing I missed out which I forgot to mention ...if the dials are ll the same why did they change to two. bezels on the 2915-1 ..

Two radically different designs and that is if you accept there was only 2 and although I have no idea what is driving these prices this is a fantastic watch with a movement certified by NASA which has achieved a real status ..so compare that with those Rolex Watches with doubtful provenance and fame by association with an actor that sell for 2 or 3 times the price
 
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I totally agree with you and adverts are exactly that just and advert

it’s the design registration I have a problem with as that has to be pin point exact otherwise it’s worthless and useless

So why is the first watch with an oval O surely that’s the second version

Any way thanks for all your help just so you don’t think I have an agenda I have owned 1 of each type
 
jimmyd13
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F fireplace
Any way thanks for all your help just so you don’t think I have an agenda I have owned 1 of each type
I don't think that you have an agenda at all ... in fact, I recognise the frustration of not being able to get a definite answer on a watch that you own and deeply want to understand. Wait til you get into antique watches and pull out truly unique examples that are just impossible to nail down at all! 😉
 
Spacefruit
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F fireplace
I totally agree with you and adverts are exactly that just and advert

it’s the design registration I have a problem with as that has to be pin point exact otherwise it’s worthless and useless

So why is the first watch with an oval O surely that’s the second version

Any way thanks for all your help just so you don’t think I have an agenda I have owned 1 of each type
You need to re write this as I cannot see what you are trying to say.

Please- I am not criticizing. I just don’t understand what you are trying to say.
 
jimmyd13
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
You need to re write this as I cannot see what you are trying to say.

Please- I am not criticizing. I just don’t understand what you are trying to say.
My reading is that @fireplace is saying the design registration for the dial (I presume the date is 1957 or earlier), shows a round O and this has him believe that there is a dial that pre-dates the ovals.

As I write that, I realise how startling such a revelation is ... can you post details of the registration document you're referring to, @fireplace ?
 
t_swiss_t
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jimmyd13 jimmyd13
When you change the strings on your Les Paul, does it become less original? If a pick up fails but you replace it with a correct, original part is the geetar now "wrong"? On the other hand, if someone spray painted over the flambe finish ... how fakked up is that?

This all reminds me of the Ship of Theseus:

"First, suppose that the famous ship sailed by the hero Theseus in a great battle has been kept in a harbour as a museum piece. As the years go by some of the wooden parts begin to rot and are replaced by new ones. After a century or so, all of the parts have been replaced. Is the "restored" ship still the same object as the original?

"Second, suppose that each of the removed pieces were stored in a warehouse, and after the century, technology develops to cure their rotting and enable them to be put back together to make a ship. Is this "reconstructed" ship the original ship? And if so, is the restored ship in the harbour still the original ship too?"

[taken from Wikipedia]

There are about 8 different lines of reasoning as to how to resolve this thought experiment -- so really just depends on what collectors agree upon in the end. Based on the fact that the dial, hands, and case are the things people value those are likely the parts the need to remain unaltered to hold their highest value.
 
Vintagewtchzilla
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F fireplace
I totally agree with you and adverts are exactly that just and advert

it’s the design registration I have a problem with as that has to be pin point exact otherwise it’s worthless and useless

So why is the first watch with an oval O surely that’s the second version

Any way thanks for all your help just so you don’t think I have an agenda I have owned 1 of each type

you are absolutely right ...

adverts are really more fun to look through than a source of trust.

but regarding your question

yes there is a dial variant out there that i did't see in MWO. also @Spacefruit mention this dial in his blog about the christies auction.

- it has an "ovalish" (not perfect round) O, high Omega writing and the shot indexes on the subdial, so from my point of view this is what comes closest to your description of the registered design.

christies-2915.jpg
 
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A14A99A0-704E-41D3-B0FD-51E747746D64.jpeg
jimmyd13 jimmyd13
My reading is that @fireplace is saying the design registration for the dial (I presume the date is 1957 or earlier), shows a round O and this has him believe that there is a dial that pre-dates the ovals.

As I write that, I realise how startling such a revelation is ... can you post details of the registration document you're referring to, @fireplace ?
 
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Vintagewtchzilla Vintagewtchzilla
you are absolutely right ...

adverts are really more fun to look through than a source of trust.

but regarding your question

yes there is a dial variant out there that i did't see in MWO. also @Spacefruit mention this dial in his blog about the christies auction.

- it has an "ovalish" (not perfect round) O, high Omega writing and the shot indexes on the subdial, so from my point of view this is what comes closest to your description of the registered design.

christies-2915.jpg
That’s the one mr zilla
 
jimmyd13
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🍿
Waiting for the true Speedmaster afficionados now as I've never seen that document before ... do you know anything more about it than that one scan @fireplace ?
 
Vintagewtchzilla
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jimmyd13 jimmyd13
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Waiting for the true Speedmaster afficionados now as I've never seen that document before ... do you know anything more about it than that one scan @fireplace ?
That scan is in mwo book
 
jimmyd13
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Vintagewtchzilla Vintagewtchzilla
That scan is in mwo book
Goddamn, there it is - p.244 (2nd ed.)

(Let's face it, I've never had the opportunity to closely examine a 2915 let alone think of buying one ... so I've not read that part of the book in detail).
 
F
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Small point is that the bezel is the flat top 3 which is generally accepted as the very first bezel design and on the first Watches so the bezel seems first issue so why would they change the dial to a strange oval if that’s supposed to come with the first issue
jimmyd13 jimmyd13
Goddamn, there it is - p.244 (2nd ed.)

(Let's face it, I've never had the opportunity to closely examine a 2915 let alone think of buying one ... so I've not read that part of the book in detail).
 
Spacefruit
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You know I thought I was an anorak.😀

F fireplace
Small point is that the bezel is the flat top 3 which is generally accepted as the very first bezel design and on the first Watches so the bezel seems first issue so why would they change the dial to a strange oval if that’s supposed to come with the first issue

Your logic is only good if you believe or know the watch to be 100% original.

It may be. But we do not know. I mean really know.

So we have to be careful not to build structures of assumptions based on flawed foundations.

What is that bezel? No “Base” engraving. I don’t think that made it to production? As I said I might be saying something stupid as I do not have all the information to hand where I am now, but I do not think that photo can be used to propose assumptions.
 
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Well you didn’t understand my first explantion so I must apologise very comprehensively so let me try again

The photo which I posted is in another book I have but it is also in the MWO book

It shows the actual omega registered design of their dial artist Charles Voser..the man who made the transfer plates for the two dial makers for the 2915

It has a round O and that was registered for the first 2915 ever made for sale ....a real watch not an assumption first watch ...it happens with a lot of real Watches that way the maker can protect his design ...that’s why he registers it

Not only that but in 1957 the other 2 Watches which came on sale were the Seamaster 300 and the railmaster...DONT know anything about them but they both had identical round O’s

So now we have 3 different Watches with the house style font for Omega with the round O along with a photo of a real watch sent to the Swiss registration design office all showing the round O
And just like mr zilla says adverts that came out at the time don’t prove anything but they also show a round O

So back to my rather pathetic attempt to explain about the problem ...who says the oval O came first and where’s the evidence

Hope you get my drift because the photo doesn’t get used to propose assumptions

however the real watch that was photographed can be used to verify what the watch looked like before a bunch of dealers decided to call it something else

Hope I nailed it thanks for reading
 
Vintagewtchzilla
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
You know I thought I was an anorak.😀



Your logic is only good if you believe or know the watch to be 100% original.

It may be. But we do not know. I mean really know.

So we have to be careful not to build structures of assumptions based on flawed foundations.

What is that bezel? No “Base” engraving. I don’t think that made it to production? As I said I might be saying something stupid as I do not have all the information to hand where I am now, but I do not think that photo can be used to propose assumptions.

@Spacefruit

the foto u are looking at is the actual document from omega to register the design of the 2915 so there is no question if this original or not

as u say photo can not be used to make assumptions then i have to ask what is the purpose of your website ? i don't see any official document like production sheet or so, or confirmation from omega that your assumptions are correct of proved by anybody .... ?
 
micampe
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I know nothing about Speedmasters but I have a question: that design registration photo shows a dial that is also missing the “Speedmaster” script and the two dots at 12 o’clock so if that is the design of the original transfer plates does that also mean that the first dials were also missing those features?
 
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