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So, how many 2915’s will crawl out......?

ConElPueblo
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marco marco
Who would go there with a $100k+ Daytona with what we now know about case and dial remanufacture. The time is coming where a certificate from an accredited lab using a electron microscope will be required. I am assuming that could be done?
We are approaching the mess that the art world got itself into, it is in everyone's interest to perpetuate the myth of originality, a rare watch is far easier to replicate than a old undiscovered masterpiece.
I once (40 years ago) worked with a crooked antique dealer / jewller from London, he actually made antiques that would pass inspection. They used wood and metal ( to make screws and nails) from the same era. He drove a Roler , so it worked !

Here's a good read: https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...ect-fake-the-worlds-top-art-forgery-detective
 
nonuffinkbloke
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(Speedmaster101 quotes on 2915's)
1) 2915’s are a minefield of counterfeit parts and put together watches. Be careful, and do due diligence.
2) I cannot say for sure what is right and wrong on a 2915.
3) There are very few people who have handled enough watches to be considered experts.
4) It is possible that every part below on my watches is questionable.
5) 2915’s are so rare, that verifying them is something I am unable to do. (I do not know anyone I trust to do so either)
6) The problem is we simply do not have the provenance to say that any given part was with the watch when new.
7) One source that cannot be relied upon is contemporary Omega literature, as it has been shown many times that the watches illustrated, (often with drawings not photos) do not depict the watches on sale at the time. (End of Speedmaster101 quotes)

So is it going to be about how many come out of the sock drawers? Or is it all going to be about verification of the ones that look correct to..... 'those who know'? (Whoever they are???)

It will take some piss poor 60 year old 'nonuffinkchap' to turn up here with a 2915:
1) That his Dad bought the day he was born in 1957.
2) With box and papers.
3) A complete time line of photographs from the late 1950's until now demonstrating 1 family ownership.

He'll be welcomed by a chorus of ......."Oh ya dear old Dad bought it on your birthday did he?😡... Oh it's all lovely and genuine is it? 😡 Yes of course it is!😡 PROVE IT YA SCAMMING BASSTEDD!😡 AND WHILE YOUR AT IT DO ANOTHER 199 POSTS!😡
 
kov
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For what the watch is potentially worth, there is no excuse not to book an appointment at the Museum and travel to the beautiful Switzerland to have it checked and authenticated. While here, another appointment with @DB1983 (Davidoff Brothers) might be the best idea as they have probably seen more of those early cal 321 Speedmasters than we all together... 52.gif
 
tyrantlizardrex
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kov kov
For what the watch is potentially worth, there is no excuse not to book an appointment at the Museum and travel to the beautiful Switzerland to have it checked and authenticated. While here, another appointment with @DB1983 (Davidoff Brothers) might be the best idea as they have probably seen more of those early cal 321 Speedmasters than we all together... 52.gif

Curious to learn what techniques the museum has to authenticate whether or not a watch is original as it left the factory, or pulled together out of parts from multiple watches.

Also, given the Seamaster 300 that @kox so diligently researched, I'm not sure I'd trust any dealer with a vested interest to authenticate anything either.

Lets all be straight about this:

The very high prices that we're seeing for some watches (that the rest of the market does not buy/sell those watches for) in the auction houses of Geneve, and Hong Kong are what they are - money laundering in one form or another.

We can all pretend that something else is going on, but it happens in art, it happens in cars, it happens in antiques, and it also happens in the world of watches.
 
tyrantlizardrex
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FirstSpeedy!!! FirstSpeedy!!!
What are the differences between the cobbled vs original? Aren't they still matching numbers?

Factory original Watch - as it left the factory.

Watch made of Original parts - not as it left the factory, but built up out of the parts of several watches to achieve a very aesthetically pleasing watch, with correct parts - some of us share a suspicion that the very high prices paid for some watches recently are for these "builds".
 
marco
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Curious to learn what techniques the museum has to authenticate whether or not a watch is original as it left the factory, or pulled together out of parts from multiple watches.

Also, given the Seamaster 300 that @kox so diligently researched, I'm not sure I'd trust any dealer with a vested interest to authenticate anything either.

Lets all be straight about this:

The very high prices that we're seeing for some watches (that the rest of the market does not buy/sell those watches for) in the auction houses of Geneve, and Hong Kong are what they are - money laundering in one form or another.

We can all pretend that something else is going on, but it happens in art, it happens in cars, it happens in antiques, and it also happens in the world of watches.

Well said Sir.
As for trusting dealers or auction houses see link.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/11/christies-says-this-painting-is-by-leonardo-i-doubt-it.html
 
jimmyd13
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
The very high prices that we're seeing for some watches (that the rest of the market does not buy/sell those watches for) in the auction houses of Geneve, and Hong Kong are what they are - money laundering in one form or another.

We can all pretend that something else is going on, but it happens in art, it happens in cars, it happens in antiques, and it also happens in the world of watches.
One day I'll learn how to shorten links on here, but today is not that day. I'm sure many already know this story:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...e omega watches to drive up the price&f=false
 
padders
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tyrantlizardrex
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jimmyd13 jimmyd13
One day I'll learn how to shorten links on here, but today is not that day. I'm sure many already know this story:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9Kk0DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT72&lpg=PT72&dq=omega museum buying vintage omega watches to drive up the price&source=bl&ots=g3id2OfXYT&sig=w8V-gDGfYFwCh24Ab_DJM2rVXhQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZzoO0xYLcAhULLcAKHRHrCRkQ6AEIdzAF#v=onepage&q=omega museum buying vintage omega watches to drive up the price&f=false

The Swiss Companies do this regularly... and often against their own brands.

A conversation I had last year with an employee of a brand, revealed that the parent company had been bidding against the brands bids for a particular watch to drive the price up... and taken it to such a point that the brand employee was not authorised to bid on it.

They screwed over their own brand for the sake of perceived market value.

Only in Switzerland.
 
Dash1
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smitty190373 smitty190373
How many 2915s would you estimate to still exist? From around 3000 produced is it as easy to assume roughly 1000 per reference?

For ease if 1000 ish 2915-1 were produced, I would guess the survival rate maybe around 50%?. Of that maybe 60% are running to good, 20% good to very good, and 10-20% very good to collector.

So if that's anywhere near correct, my maths suggest there are only around 50-100 or so very good to collector 2915-1 in existence.
I think your guesstimates are a fair starting point, but I very much doubt there are anything near 100 very good to collector 2915-1 (ie very original, very pleasing condition) left in existence. My gut feeling would be less than 50.
There is no doubt we’ll be seeing quite a few more examples of this reference showing up in variable conditions but one hinderance to those wanting to cobble an example together is the near impossibility of sourcing correct original parts.
 
padders
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I heard a similar story regarding a certain run of modern Rolexes with a military connection. One of the first was secretly repurchased by those arranging the issue for a ridiculous price to create a false market and sense of desirability ie they bought back their own watch. I heard this first hand from a respected auctioneer but am being circumspect for obvious reasons. Not sure how legal these kind of practices are but they certainly aren't ethical.
 
jimmyd13
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padders padders
I heard a similar story regarding a certain run of modern Rolexes with a military connection. One of the first was secretly repurchased by those arranging the issue for a ridiculous price to create a false market and sense of desirability ie they bought back their own watch. I heard this first hand from a respected auctioneer but am being circumspect for obvious reasons. Not sure how legal these kind of practices are but they certainly aren't ethical.
It's been a staple of the art market for decades. As money moved into vintage watches, then it's no surprise that similar practices are going to be employed there. Still, I buy art as well as watches and I rarely (if ever) pay more than a few hundred pounds for an oil on canvas so these cabals can keep driving up prices for as long as they want as far as I'm concerned. I have beautiful things to look at that will always be worth substantially more than I paid. Both on my walls and on my wrist.
 
Davidt
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padders padders
I heard a similar story regarding a certain run of modern Rolexes with a military connection. One of the first was secretly repurchased by those arranging the issue for a ridiculous price to create a false market and sense of desirability ie they bought back their own watch. I heard this first hand from a respected auctioneer but am being circumspect for obvious reasons. Not sure how legal these kind of practices are but they certainly aren't ethical.

Orchi makes some great points about the Comex dials in various posts.

I wouldn't fancy being left holding one when the music stops.
 
nonuffinkbloke
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Well I'm a novice at this game but I know this much to be true:

Even when a genuine vintage Omega Speedmaster goes to a genuine, well respected, service centre and is inspected by one of the most respected vintage watchmakers in the world... at some point it ends up in tiny pieces on a bench. Is it really logical to assume that these watches always go back together with ALL of the original parts?

Section of the service letter I received from Swiss Time Services UK:

20170505_133703-1-1-1.jpg


When I was given a guided tour of the STS UK workshop I saw these "bits" of vintage watches in their little containers on work benches.

How could anyone possibly say for sure that, once a 60 year old watch is serviced, it has all the parts it left the factory with? 😕 The older the watch (2915's = 60 years) the more services it may have had. More opportunities for it to be dismantled into tiny bits on a bench. More opportunities for worn parts to be replaced.

I think this "factory original" malarky on a 60 year old high value, vintage watch is unprovable 'bollocks'.😟 I'm not saying 'there are no factory original' Watches. I'm saying it's unprovable, unless somebody can explain otherwise???
Edited:
 
marco
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nonuffinkbloke nonuffinkbloke
Well I'm a novice at this game but I know this much to be true:

Even when a genuine vintage Omega Speedmaster goes to a genuine, well respected, service centre and is inspected by one of the most respected vintage watchmakers in the world... at some point it ends up in tiny pieces on a bench. Is it really logical to assume that these watches always go back together with ALL of the original parts?

Section of a service letter from Swiss Time Services UK:

20170505_133703-1-1-1.jpg


When I was given a guided tour of the STS UK workshop I saw these "bits" of vintage watches in their little containers on work benches.

How could anyone possibly say for sure that, once a 60 year old watch is serviced, it has all the parts it left the factory with? 😕 The older the watch (2915's = 60 years) the more services it may have had. More opportunities for it to be dismantled into tiny bits on a bench. More opportunities for worn parts to be replaced.

I think this "factory original" malarky on a 60 year old high value, vintage watch is unprovable 'bollocks'.😟

You have a way with words my friend.
What matters to the cognoscenti is the dial, hands, case remain original.
 
jimmyd13
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nonuffinkbloke nonuffinkbloke
Well I'm a novice at this game but I know this much to be true:

Even when a genuine vintage Omega Speedmaster goes to a genuine, well respected, service centre and is inspected by one of the most respected vintage watchmakers in the world... at some point it ends up in tiny pieces on a bench. Is it really logical to assume that these watches always go back together with ALL of the original parts?

Section of a service letter from Swiss Time Services UK:

20170505_133703-1-1-1.jpg


When I was given a guided tour of the STS UK workshop I saw these "bits" of vintage watches in their little containers on work benches.

How could anyone possibly say for sure that, once a 60 year old watch is serviced, it has all the parts it left the factory with? 😕 The older the watch (2915's = 60 years) the more services it may have had. More opportunities for it to be dismantled into tiny bits on a bench. More opportunities for worn parts to be replaced.

I think this "factory original" malarky on a 60 year old high value, vintage watch is unprovable 'bollocks'.😟
When you change the strings on your Les Paul, does it become less original? If a pick up fails but you replace it with a correct, original part is the geetar now "wrong"? On the other hand, if someone spray painted over the flambe finish ... how fakked up is that?
 
BatDad
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jimmyd13 jimmyd13
When you change the strings on your Les Paul, does it become less original? If a pick up fails but you replace it with a correct, original part is the geetar now "wrong"? On the other hand, if someone spray painted over the flambe finish ... how fakked up is that?
Strings fine - they are by definition a replaceable and transient part. I take your point on the finish but I'd try and argue pickups and hands are similar. Disclose any replacements and acknowledge the guitar is not factory fresh - and the obvious drop in price. The issue is not so much with replacements but the attempt to hide from this
 
smitty190373
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Dash1 Dash1
I think your guesstimates are a fair starting point, but I very much doubt there are anything near 100 very good to collector 2915-1 (ie very original, very pleasing condition) left in existence. My gut feeling would be less than 50.
There is no doubt we’ll be seeing quite a few more examples of this reference showing up in variable conditions but one hinderance to those wanting to cobble an example together is the near impossibility of sourcing correct original parts.

Yes I would agree with that, it's obviously largely guess work, but I could easily see only 25-50 very nice 2915-1 being left in existence.

One thing I do know for a fact is they are rare as hens teeth... and congratulations to all the lucky owners.
 
Spacefruit
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Well the subject gets more interesting when the question of valuing a flawed watch comes up.

How much for an otherwise correct watch with only ONE of the following:

A questionable bezel
A re lumed dial
Uncertain origin of hands
A degraded case

A true dealer will put a price on them

Some collectors will turn up their noses and dismiss them. I would argue this camp doesn’t have the stones to buy at this level and the dismissiveness is a defense or they are lucky enough to own one.

Some collectors will say, well it’s not worth the price of the last three auction results, but I would pay $X for it, rather than not have on at all
 
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