So... any of our members here have an interest in firearms?

voere · Oct 17, 2018

noelekal
Can't speak from experience with weather conditions in upstate New York, but I have taken lots of deer here in Texas over several decades with vintage sporting bolt-action rifles wearing period scopes from the 1950s to early 1960s. Lyman All Americans and an Alaskan, Weavers, and Leupolds, some with interesting reticules. I've not been frustrated with light-gathering capabilities and have had no fogging issues. All have given perfect satisfaction. Some came on the rifles as acquired. Some I deliberately mounted for period-correct fun.

Here's the Winchester Model 70 tribe. Three Pre-64s: a '37 vintage .220 Swift, '47 vintage .257 Roberts, '53 vintage .30-06 with a 1980s Super Express .375 H&H Magnum.

Nice collection in some great calibers

voere · Oct 17, 2018

propervinyl
I love your collection - and the idea of period correct scopes.

Currently considering a Pre-64 Model 70 or a Sako Forester/Finnbear, and am wondering if you have any concerns going hunting with vintage optics.

I would love to have a period-correct scope on the rifle, but am worried that the unforgiving weather we face in upstate New York in November might put the scope at risk.

Thanks in advance!

I would not worry about the cold as long as you take some precautions. Even the best of new scopes will fog up if you go from hot to cold, I try to keep my scope rifles in the cold. Normally I leave the rifle I will hunt with outside for an hour or so prior to the hunt to adjust to the temperature. I also use anti fog wipes on the outer lens.

So far this has worked well for me. Plus it never hurts the have a set of iron sights on the scoped rifles. Just in case something may go AFU with the scope. For my hunts I also bring along a backup rifle just in case the rifle may have issues.

With new to me vintage scopes I put them in the freezer for a hour or so. When I take them out I check for moisture inside the scope. If all checks well then I use the scope for hunting if not. I have the scope repaired or use the scope for plinking in warmer weather.

propervinyl · Oct 17, 2018

noelekal
Here's the Winchester Model 70 tribe. Three Pre-64s: a '37 vintage .220 Swift, '47 vintage .257 Roberts, '53 vintage .30-06 with a 1980s Super Express .375 H&H Magnum.

Wow - I almost fell out of my chair those are so gorgeous. This is inspiring.

voere
I would not worry about the cold as long as you take some precautions. Even the best of new scopes will fog up if you go from hot to cold, I try to keep my scope rifles in the cold. Normally I leave the rifle I will hunt with outside for an hour or so prior to the hunt to adjust to the temperature. I also use anti fog wipes on the outer lens. So far this has worked well for me. Plus it never hurts the have a set of iron sights on the scoped rifles. Just in case something may go AFU with the scope. For my hunts I also bring along a backup rifle just in case the rifle may have issues.

With new to me vintage scopes I put them in the freezer for a hour or so. When I take them out I check for moisture inside the scope. If all checks well then I use the scope for hunting if not. I have the scope repaired or use the scope for plinking in warmer weather.

This is great advice and makes a ton of sense - thank you! Will definitely give this a go ahead of season.

In your experience, how much does it cost to get a scope repaired/sealed (considering it is generally working OK to begin with)?

Seriously, thank you all. I have a passion for shotguns from this period. Superposeds, Model 12's, Philly Foxes and Parkers. This is my first foray in to classic hunting rifles and it is really exciting.

i20rider · Oct 17, 2018

1911 anyone

noelekal · Oct 17, 2018

Why not?!!!

Some of these may have been posted here before, at least in a group photo. The current crop of 1911-guns on hand.

World War I 1918 vintage Colt Model 1911 .45 ACP I U. S. contract pistol

2016 Colt Delta Elite 10mm (stainless) and a 1967 Colt Government Model .45 ACP (blued - w/aftermarket Harrison "retro" sights)

2014 Colt Government Model .45 ACP

World War II 1944 vintage Remington Rand Model 1911A1 .45 ACP U. S. contract pistol

1979 vintage Colt Gold Cup .45 ACP ( I bought it new in 1982)

1947 vintage commercial Colt Government Model .45 ACP (w/ period Brill holster)

... and one uncommonly seen original Colt .45 automatic pre-dating the 1911, the Colt Model 1905 in .45 Rimless Smokeless (same as .45 ACP). Shabby looking yet runs like a champ.

Caution: Late night opinionated "pontificating" ahead!

To be taken with a grain of salt.

I grew up around the 1911. Several family members had them. One either shot Colt commercial pistols or surplus U.S. contract pistols back then. There was no such thing as other manufacturers' clones and we never saw the custom-tuned 1911s of the 1960s and early 1970s. Family members always spoke of the 1911 pistol as uniquely reliable in much the same manner as the Glock is considered to be reliable today. In 1978 I acquired my first 1911 as a 21st birthday present to me, the old World War I pistol seen at the top of the photographs here. Since then the design has given perfect satisfaction for me. I have not observed the Glock design to offer more dependable function than the 1911, not my Glock nor anyone else's.

I've always owned only Colts and U. S. military guns. I've never tinkered with them, but only shoot the hooey out of them. I am familiar with the design and can detail strip them, but am no 1911 gunsmith. I don't know if that's a secret to satisfactory 1911 use or not.

I trust the basic design but it seems that more than a few current purveyors of the 1911 apparently aren't getting it right. The old pistol just isn't troublesome in my view. "Improved" as in: modified, customized, chopped and channeled, rolled and pleated, balanced and blue-printed, tricked out, and spread with special sauce and three kinds of cheese on a toasted sesame seed bun and baked to a crackly crunch ... well yeah, then it can be trouble.

If everybody and his blind uncle manufactured renditions of the Glock (or insert other modern favorite "pistol-du-jour" here) as is the case with 1911-guns, or if there was a entire cottage industry out there treating the Glock (or insert other modern favorite "pistol-du-jour" here) to every whim of design modification and aftermarket part in the same way the poor Model 1911 design is adulterated, then that pistol design will choke and hark too. Some of what is passed off as "1911" out there is pretty far removed from the original "spirit and intent" and this should be born in mind.

What a 1911 isn't. It hasn't been "tightened." It doesn't have a full length guide rod. It is a full-sized gun and most definitely not shortened. It isn't a Commander, Officer's Model, or an alloy framed creation. It doesn't hold 14 rounds of .45 ACP. It doesn't come with a DAO trigger option. It doesn't come with a barrel-mounted feed ramp. It isn't bob-tailed or melted. It is of forged steel and not cast. It isn't polymer. It isn't a high-dollar especially tuned model with some macho sounding name emblazoned in billboard-sized letters on its side.

In my view many commercial renditions of the Model 1911 have strayed far from the simple original design as produced for the U.S. military and aren't really even in the same league as the old loosy-goosy guns that served through a couple of World Wars and other actions.

More on the 2014 Colt Government Model. It's really just a garden variety Colt, but is particularly meaningful to me.

After college, our youngest son wanted to enlist in the U. S. Marine Corps infantry to be a machine gunner. His five-year enlistment included two deployments to Afghanistan. On his second deployment, during a time of particular hazards and uncertainty for him, he skyped me one evening in December of 2013 just before Christmas to ask if an attractively low price for a special run of Colt Government Model pistols commemorating the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment was a good "deal." He could get one on special order. I told him that it was a deal and asked him if, while he was at it, he could get one for ol' dad. Once all the orders from Marine 3/7 were in, the pistols were produced, arriving in June of 2014.

The pistols represent a connection between us during a difficult time. At the time I prayed we'd be able to have one of our "father and son .45 Fests" and shoot the pistols together some day soon. Thankfully, he returned home safely and we've now had several .45 Fests together with the pair of pistols.

Father and son .45s on the pickup's tailgate at the club range.

The "commemorative" nature of the pistols consists of a special serial number sequence and an additional pair of Marine 3/7 emblazoned stocks included in the package. We shoot them with their standard checkered stocks installed.

The Colt with the Marine 3/7 stocks installed.

Did I happen to mention that the 1911 is my very favorite center fire automatic of all?

Professor · Oct 18, 2018

" the Colt Model 1905 in .45 Rimless Smokeless (same as .45 ACP)"

IIRC the original .45 cartridge for these had a bullet with much more rounded nose (like a scaled up .380 ACP) and slightly lighter weight. That cartridge was later adopted by the British as their .455 auto. I think these are interchangeable as far as use in the 1911 goes.
The longer nose of the standardized .45 ACP resulted in the scallop cut that undermines the chamber of the 1911. A source of problems when hot loads were attempted. To develop high pressure loads for the 1911 a case with a thicker web was necessary. The standard loading is fairly low pressure for such a powerful cartridge.

The Father · Oct 18, 2018

Those 1911’s, nice collection.
I will dig mine up. Bought it for $16 when I was a kid. Where is the shovel now?

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

noelekal
I grew up around the 1911.

First of all, I read this as "I grew up around 1911"...which instantly got my attention.....

noelekal
What a 1911 isn't. It hasn't been "tightened." It doesn't have a full length guide rod. It is a full-sized gun and most definitely not shortened. It isn't a Commander, Officer's Model, or an alloy framed creation. It doesn't hold 14 rounds of .45 ACP. It doesn't come with a DAO trigger option. It doesn't come with a frame-mounted feed ramp. It isn't bob-tailed or melted. It is of forged steel and not cast. It isn't polymer. It isn't a high-dollar especially tuned model with some macho sounding name emblazoned in billboard-sized letters on its side.

All is good with the world. God bless John Browning!

noelekal
The pistols represent a connection between us during a difficult time. At the time I prayed we'd be able to have one of our "father and son .45 Fests" and shoot the pistols together some day soon. Thankfully, he returned home safely and we've now had several .45 Fests together with the pair of pistols.

Now THAT'S the pinnacle of "family time" in my opinion. My best memories of my Dad are when we went fishing and shooting. He has a ringing in his ear to his day due to a misunderstanding about me calling range hot. He says he doesn't regret it...we had a great time, the best ever.

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

Professor
To develop high pressure loads for the 1911 a case with a thicker web was necessary. The standard loading is fairly low pressure for such a powerful cartridge.

When I got a SA1911 in 45 Super I loaded std 45CAP cases to a warmer level. I can say confidently you can load 230g to 1000fps quite easily without pressure problems.

voere · Oct 18, 2018

propervinyl
Wow - I almost fell out of my chair those are so gorgeous. This is inspiring.

This is great advice and makes a ton of sense - thank you! Will definitely give this a go ahead of season.

In your experience, how much does it cost to get a scope repaired/sealed (considering it is generally working OK to begin with)?

Seriously, thank you all. I have a passion for shotguns from this period. Superposeds, Model 12's, Philly Foxes and Parkers. This is my first foray in to classic hunting rifles and it is really exciting.

On scopes that I had to have repaired the cost was just over $100. If you stick with scope brands like Leupold or Burris They will repair or replace the scope at no charge
Good Luck

noelekal · Oct 18, 2018

Professor
" the Colt Model 1905 in .45 Rimless Smokeless (same as .45 ACP)"

IIRC the original .45 cartridge for these had a bullet with much more rounded nose (like a scaled up .380 ACP) and slightly lighter weight. That cartridge was later adopted by the British as their .455 auto. I think these are interchangeable as far as use in the 1911 goes.
The longer nose of the standardized .45 ACP resulted in the scallop cut that undermines the chamber of the 1911. A source of problems when hot loads were attempted. To develop high pressure loads for the 1911 a case with a thicker web was necessary. The standard loading is fairly low pressure for such a powerful cartridge.

You're right Professor. The original cartridge from 1905 would work fine in any 1911. It's said that standard 230 grain ball ammunition will operate the Colt Model 1905 though I've not tested this.

The original cartridge did call for a slightly lighter bullet weight, 200 grains than what became standard, 230 grains, by 1911 when the Colt Government Model/ 1911 was introduced.

Images gleaned from the internet

Here's a nice example of the Colt Model 1905 with a box of the ammunition.

My ol' ratty example was acquired back in the 1990s. I had a loan customer who had previously been on the bank's janitorial staff and who still frequented our lobby. She was aware I liked guns so asked me about a pistol her brother had possessed. He'd recently died. He'd obtained it from their grandfather who had brought it up out of Mexico. She said she was considering selling the pistol as she was concerned about having it around the house when her grand kids visited. I told her to just put the pistol in a sack and bring it by sometime.

Soon she came by with the pistol in a cloth bag. I didn't much expect to be a buyer for it, expecting to pull a ratty 1911 of some sort from the bag. Imagine my surprise when I withdrew it from its bag to find a ratty Colt Model 1905 rather than a run-of-the mill 1911. I most definitely was interested then. I told her what I thought it was worth, but also told her about the scarcity of the model and suggested that its sentimental value might be worth much to her family. She agreed that perhaps she was being a bit hasty so she'd keep it.

The pistol was pretty grimy inside and out so I asked her if I could clean it up for her. She allowed me to carry it home and clean it and lubricate it. I returned it to her and didn't hear any more out of her about it for some years.

One day I ran into her around town and she mentioned that she still had the pistol and was again interested in selling it to me if I'd still buy it. Well, of course I would!

Pancho Villa was active during the pistol's heyday. I never thought to name my guns as some owners are wont to do and I ain't sayin' the pistol was Villa's personal gun, but I did name the pistol "Pancho Villa."

Some armchair "experts" claim the "parallel slide rule" design of the Model 1905 is flawed and the pistol is unsafe to shoot. The wedge seen at the front of the slide is the slide lock. If it was to fail or to come out upon firing then the slide would fly off the back of the pistol.

I've not uncovered any examples of this happening with the Colt Model 1905, nor any other similarly designed early full-sized Colt automatic pistol models found chambered for the .38 ACP. After the 230 grain .45 ACP load became standard, many Colt Model 1905s extant were habitually used with it as an expedient. A review of the design and its operation would indicate that if ammunition was used that was loaded to specifications then the design would be fine.

I won't own a firearm that I can't experience through the shooting of it. Appropriately, I produced a special "Colt Model 1905" hand load for use in this pistol. The load consists of a 200 grain cast lead round nose bullet and a middle-of-the road 6.1 grain charge weight of Unique powder. This gives a velocity of 797 feet per second and perfect function. The pistol eats this hand loaded ammunition like candy. I've not shot the pistol all that much, but it gets exercised on occasion.

Here's an "action shot" of a shooting acquaintance firing the Model 1905 on an occasion when it was taken for an outing. The smoky nature of the handload is a result of the combination of the mild charge of Unique powder and the bullet lubrication used with the cast lead bullets.

noelekal · Oct 18, 2018

Wryfox
When I got a SA1911 in 45 Super I loaded std 45CAP cases to a warmer level. I can say confidently you can load 230g to 1000fps quite easily without pressure problems. Sorry for crappy inventory pic.
View attachment 643070

Looks like it's suffered from termites.

A 230 grain .45 bullet cranked up to 1000 fps is potent indeed. That would serve most any reasonable purpose to which a pistol could be used.

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

noelekal
... and one uncommonly seen original Colt .45 automatic pre-dating the 1911, the Colt Model 1905 in .45 Rimless Smokeless (same as .45 ACP). Shabby looking yet runs like a champ.

Say, I didn't realize how rare these puppies really are. You've got quite a gem there Noelekel. Just read a little history on them...fascinating. I started thinking I'd like to have one in the collection then read only 6000 were made. Casual search on Gunbroker turned up exactly *ZERO* available. I don't believe I have ever seen one in the wild either.....though having thought I had, I realized they had to be 1902s or similar due to seeing prices in the ~$1000+- range. The 1905s would be many $1000s.

noelekal · Oct 18, 2018

Did you happen to run onto Sam Lisker's ColtAutos.com in an internet search?

It's enough to make one drool on his key board to view the photos of vintage collectible Colts featured there. Some real "condition rarity" examples are seen.

http://www.coltautos.com/1905.htm

One can find the Colt model in which he is interested then click on "photos and information" to see the examples on hand. Clicking on each example will show the Colt pistol it describes.

ras47 · Oct 18, 2018

That 1911A1 Remington Rand is my favorite pistol in the world. While I may favor Glocks now in general, nothing will ever replace the RR in my heart. In an acute situation I would not hesitate to pick up the RR .45 to defend myself or my family. The only issue I have with the 1911s is capacity. I'm fine with a 7-8 round capacity weapon. But if my wife is home alone and something goes bump in the night she will need more than that in the mag. At least I'd feel better with her having more rounds. I keep her shooting, working on her basic skills, but it's just not a priority for her like it is for me. My Glock 23 holds 13 rounds of .40 S&W. Normally I abhor compromises, but this one makes sense to me given my overall situation.

Just for an added edge, I load Glaser Safety Slugs (silver tip) for home defense.

Professor · Oct 18, 2018

Wryfox
When I got a SA1911 in 45 Super I loaded std 45CAP cases to a warmer level. I can say confidently you can load 230g to 1000fps quite easily without pressure problems. Sorry for crappy inventory pic.
View attachment 643070

I would not be surprised to find the geometry of the scallop of your barrel is not the same as that of a standard 1911.
I'd also not be surprised to find that some more modern factory loads have the thicker web as standard. I would not try those hot loads in older cases. With the original case and barrel there's about 1/16-1/8" of the case wall unsupported by the chamber wall.
Some double base pistol powders can produce fairly high velocities while maintaining a marginally safe chamber pressure for the older case and barrel combination. Its not something I'd recommend since when a web finally does let go you can end up with a burned and chewed up palm full of splinters and hot brass at the least and a damaged pistol. Its happened far too many times to be discounted.

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

noelekal
The smoky nature of the handload is a result of the combination of the mild charge of Unique powder and the bullet lubrication used with the cast lead bullets.

Ugh. I say Ugh whenever I read about Unique powder. Dirty and greasy....only perfect for when you really need to clean a gun anyway...cause you're gonna be cleaning it all right. It's unfortunate I have 8lbs of this stuff. It's never gonna get used up.

It's also super easy to double charge, 38s especially.

I got a tub of Trail Boss cheap one day, and its a very nice powder if you don't need 'above spec' velocities. Its designed as a blackpowder cartridge replacement(38/45/44 etc), fills the case, and burns clean. Nearly impossible to get into trouble, plus its fun as it looks like little Cheerios. Some people use it for automatics, but I never have....though I should think 45ACP would work just fine. In fact, IMR has listed loads for it on their website(200g, 652-816fps range). It's a great all around low pressure powder. Super stable.

Particularly good for old guns that are *almost* too valuable to shoot, like a 1905.

Pic below compares Trail Boss(left) with Bullseye.

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

Professor
I would not be surprised to find the geometry of the scallop of your barrel is not the same as that of a standard 1911.
I'd also not be surprised to find that some more modern factory loads have the thicker web as standard. I would not try those hot loads in older cases. With the original case and barrel there's about 1/16-1/8" of the case wall unsupported by the chamber wall.
Some double base pistol powders can produce fairly high velocities while maintaining a marginally safe chamber pressure for the older case and barrel combination. Its not something I'd recommend since when a web finally does let go you can end up with a burned and chewed up palm full of splinters and hot brass at the least and a damaged pistol. Its happened far too many times to be discounted.

Yeah, I should have said "for this pistol". It is designed for high velocity 45ACP, though std ACP cases can be used, and loaded warm as the chamber is more fully supported. Ideally, you use 45Super cases, which are same size as 45ACP but even thicker in the web. Back when these Supers came out, there was a lot of internet chatter about hot loads. Trust me, 1000fps wasn't hot compared to what some folks were doing.

I shot the 1000fps load in a std 1911. Pretty brutal. I think I popped in a 24lb spring to control it, but still wouldn't do it again. Brass came out fine, though the extractor left a bigger bite.

Wryfox · Oct 18, 2018

noelekal
Did you happen to run onto Sam Lisker's ColtAutos.com in an internet search?

It's enough to make one drool on his key board to view the photos of vintage collectible Colts featured there. Some real "condition rarity" examples are seen.

http://www.coltautos.com/1905.htm

One can find the Colt model in which he is interested then click on "photos and information" to see the examples on hand. Clicking on each example will show the Colt pistol it describes.

Gee, thanks. You found me another rabbit hole.......gotta save that webpage for a day I don't mind losing time. It will be soon though.....😁

noelekal · Oct 18, 2018

I've always had such good results from ol' Unique. I once had someone accuse me of putting Unique on my corn flakes for breakfast. Loaded my very first ammunition with it, some .38 Special back in the mid-1970s. I'm probably more familiar with its performance characteristics in various handgun cartridges than any other powder. Have certainly used more Unique than any other powder.

I use a single stage reloading press and have arranged the process so double charges are avoided. Never felt concern for the way it meters through the powder measure. Never worried about its smoky nature when used in mild to moderate loads and have found that Unique burns quite cleanly with little smoke or residue if loaded to the upper levels of what is appropriate for charge weights for a given cartridge. Never was concerned about residues anyway for the guns are cleaned after each use, one shot or 500 shots.

I have punished my favorite .38 Special revolver on a few occasions with up to 500 rounds of Unique-fueled lead bullet handloads through it in single shooting session and it does get sluggish to an extent before I finish shooting. That may be as much due to accumulated bullet lube as it is to buildup of powder residue. The 1911-guns crank right through extended shooting sessions with Unique. Well, the Gold Cup can protest and get balky with high-volume shooting of cast bullet loads, but then it is a tight target grade pistol and not really best choice for high-volume work.

Perhaps it's age or perhaps it's only belated perceptiveness on my part, but I don't shoot so much at a single session as I used to. A few years back I was having an enjoyable time one afternoon shooting .22 Long Rifle through favorite handguns, but after around 300 rounds expended I noticed that I just could not concentrate and hold as well as I could earlier in the afternoon.

I ought to "get out more" though. I once felt the need to experiment with and get to know each and every powder that Du Pont, Hercules, and Hodgdon produced. Then companies were absorbed, merged, changed up, new propellant manufacturers appeared, with all the companies marketing "new-and-improved" powders. I've become sort of hide-bound over the past few years and stopped sampling every new powder offering that comes out. I'm way behind times is what I am and ought to try some more recent powders that seem to garner good reports from reloaders.

Bulls-Eye, Unique, 2400 and H110 seem to receive the most use here. Have played with some Herco in recent times for some oldie calibers. I didn't get around to trying W231 until a few years ago as a substitute for favored Bulls-Eye in light target load applications.