So... any of our members here have an interest in firearms?

asrnj77 · Apr 28, 2020

Lostpuppy116
Ras47 has a defense strategy that works for that home. No different than a machine gun belt loaded with a tracer every fifth round or a police shotgun running slugs with beanbags on the side saddle or a trained German Shepherd. Or a 90 year old with a .22 revolver because that is what he feels confident in. When I turn 90, I hope I can wield a 9mm effectively, but if it is a .22, then so be it and no steel frame .44 magnum is even in the cards.
Depending on the country, the laws will determine the option of baseball/cricket bat or firearm for home defense.
As an aside, I googled bear attacks and was surprised by the number of 9mm and other pistols being used in bear attacks with success by the pistol user. Success here being person not dying and/or bear dying or running off. Bullets were normally full metal jacket and not hollow points. Great read.

Well it kind of is different. For starters a tracer round will still kill you. Likewise with somebody carrying a .22 revolver. A smaller caliber round isn’t considered “less than lethal”. In practical terms it could potentially do less damage than a 9mm but its not like you’re shooting a neighborhood punk with rock salt. You would still be shooting somebody with a bullet. I’m also not familiar with any police officer that mixes less than lethal ammunition with live ammunition. That is a nightmare waiting to happen. That’s also why police officers carry tasers on their non-weapon side so that they don’t instinctively reach for their duty weapon when they intended to grab the taser.

To Ras47’s point I get the preference for less than lethal. I can’t imagine any intruder that is going to continue to enter your home after first hearing/seeing a 12 gauge and then getting shot with any sort of projectile (bean bag or not). My point was just that when you mix non-lethal and lethal together you can get unintended consequences.

Professor · Apr 29, 2020

A few years back I ran across a European site that advertised a hard rubber projectile load for standard 12 gauge shotguns. it occurred to me then that if you wished to see that a family member had a weapon to defend against home invaders such a load would be useful in that while most people might hesitate to blast an intruder with a load of buck shot they probably would not hesitate if they were using a non lethal load. While the load is not intended to be lethal any projectile hitting certain vulnerable areas of the body can kill, even a thrown rock or baseball can kill.
If you used a double barrel hammer coach gun you could instantly chose between a non lethal load or a buck shot load. Or a light load of birdshot to the legs or heavy load of buckshot if more suitable for the situation.
A shotgun is generally easier to snatch up for quick use than a handgun in a drawer.
There's also no need for an either/or choice. use the shotgun as the primary weapon with handgun tucked in your waist band as a back up.
If you want to disable an intruder quickly a load of shot to the legs is quicker to apply than pointing a pistol low and hoping to hit something non vital.
While I have no qualms about taking the life of someone who poses a credible threat to me and mine the majority of people do, and I'd like a non lethal option as well.

Professor · Apr 29, 2020

Waltesefalcon
It all boils down to how the ammo is stored. I've fired 100 year old ammunition before that went bang every time but had been stored in a cool dry place. For the one in your trunk I'd change out the ammo every year, just because of the temperature and humidity variances that ammo is enduring throughout the year.

Never store ammunition in the trunk of a car in summertime. Double based powders like most pistol powders are can break down at 125 degrees and a car trunk without an active ventilator system reaches over 180 degrees after hours of being exposed to summer sun.

Years ago I read of a blow up of a .44 magnum that had been carried in the glove box of a truck for a year. The weather in that area wasn't hot but on that model truck the glove box was close to the ducting of the heater and defroster. The powder in the ammunition in the glovebox became brittle and vibration from the engine and bouncing around the back roads caused it to turn to dust. When fired it detonated rather than a controlled burn.

Wryfox · Apr 29, 2020

Professor
An off duty female cop had a real failure using a .380 against a 500+ lb Black Bear here in Tennessee years ago.
Black Bear that big are very rare in Tennessee, they seldom reach 300+ lb.
This bear had carried off a nine year old girl and was eating her when the cop emptied the .380 into its head at close range with no effect at all.
The skull of the Black Bear is very different from that of other bears. The brain case is narrow and almond shaped. A bullet through the eye socket from head on can pass right through without touching the brain case. A bullet hitting above the eyes can pass through a lot of flesh without touching the very low set brain case.
Best way to reach the brain of the Black Bear is through the nose. The nasal cavity is very large compared to other bears and goes straight back to the very low set brain. Next best is through the open mouth.

The things you learn on omegaforums.....how to kill a black bear.

We have black bears in abundance where I live here in Florida... Was out in the driveway at midnight looking at a meteor shower and felt a presence next to me.... Massive black bear, easily 400 lbs...had walked up next to me, sniffing around. I stood perfectly still and eventually he walked off. I could have put my hand straight out and patted him on the head.

Professor · Apr 29, 2020

Wryfox
Was out in the driveway at midnight looking at a meteor shower and felt a presence next to me.... Massive black bear, easily 400 lbs...had walked up next to me, sniffing around. I stood perfectly still and eventually he walked off. I could have put my hand straight out and patted him on the head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu594ennuxI

ras47 · Apr 30, 2020

asrnj77
Well it kind of is different. For starters a tracer round will still kill you. Likewise with somebody carrying a .22 revolver. A smaller caliber round isn’t considered “less than lethal”. In practical terms it could potentially do less damage than a 9mm but its not like you’re shooting a neighborhood punk with rock salt. You would still be shooting somebody with a bullet. I’m also not familiar with any police officer that mixes less than lethal ammunition with live ammunition. That is a nightmare waiting to happen. That’s also why police officers carry tasers on their non-weapon side so that they don’t instinctively reach for their duty weapon when they intended to grab the taser.

To Ras47’s point I get the preference for less than lethal. I can’t imagine any intruder that is going to continue to enter your home after first hearing/seeing a 12 gauge and then getting shot with any sort of projectile (bean bag or not). My point was just that when you mix non-lethal and lethal together you can get unintended consequences.

Unintended consequences is a very important point. It's especially critical in a home defense/life-or-death situation. I've practiced with beanbag rounds (14+) to ensure I know what's going to happen when I uncork one, but folks should know that these rounds are unpredictable. Some don't fly straight, making a shot of over 10 yds. uncertain. If you miss the center of mass and only wing an attacker, if he's large or jacked up on something, you may not stop him. Never stand back and admire your first shot. Get that second round in the chamber most ricky-tick. Reacquire that sight picture and be ready to shoot again. At close range I'm inclined to use both beanbag rounds in rapid succession, unless the first one puts the intruder on his butt. It *should* take the fight out of anybody, but those unintended consequences will bite you when you can lease afford it.

I'm often asked by friends and colleagues what's the best home defense pistol. My answer is always, "whatever you're comfortable shooting and will practice with." If you're not going to practice, don't get a firearm for self defense. I offer to take folks to my range as a guest. The range has qualified Range Safety Officers as well as expert trainers. They can work with anybody, from first time shooters to life-long shooters. I continually stress practice and gun safety, especially safe gun storage. I've deterred more than a few folks who were casually considering buying a pistol, convincing them it's just not their thing. The world is a dangerous enough place already without adding an inexperienced, untrained, and frightened newcomer with a weapon into the mix. The potential for self-inflicted disaster is sky high. I encourage anyone to do it right or not at all. Either way is fine. I respect anybody's choice to forgo firearms. They're not for everybody.

ras47 · Apr 30, 2020

Side note on black bears.

We have a cabin in the woods in Pennsylvania. Lots of seasonal hunting camps there, mostly for deer. A lot of the cabins are what would be affectionately called "rustic," which is a euphemism for dilapidated and falling down. Local bears have figured out they're easy pickins' and often filled with canned goods. Child's play for a bear as they'll simply tear open a metal can. One owner was sitting in his cabin at night, in a comfy chair reading a book by candle light, when a large black bear entered his place. The bear tore into the cabin by ripping the walls open at a corner. Before pissing his pants the owner drew his .38 revolver from his belt holster and fired once at the bear now standing in his foyer. The bullet struck the bear's head above the eye, followed the contour of his skull around his head, and exited the back of his scalp. The bear fled, smarting from the grazing but otherwise ok. For years that bear continued to forage the area, easily recognized from the part in his hair. Everyone nicknamed him Elvis and he was deemed off limits to hunters. Sort of a local legend that I thought was complete bulls!t. Until I saw him. I'll be damned, a bear with a part in his hair!

larryganz · Apr 30, 2020

We run into bears all the time, and they haven't discovered fire - but they know how to get past 2 bungee cords holding the trash can shut, like this one in front of my house.

Three different bears spent some time in our yard last summer. I hate walking the dog after dark, but carry bear spray and 1000 lumen light, with a .357 magnum as backup.

PS: About 10 years ago I did indeed have to fire my .38 at a bear that was chasing my wife and dog, and she backed off after I hit the rocks in front of it's feet with a slug (the bear, not my wife). I even made the news.

mr_smith · May 1, 2020

Professor
A few years back I ran across a European site that advertised a hard rubber projectile load for standard 12 gauge shotguns. it occurred to me then that if you wished to see that a family member had a weapon to defend against home invaders such a load would be useful in that while most people might hesitate to blast an intruder with a load of buck shot they probably would not hesitate if they were using a non lethal load. While the load is not intended to be lethal any projectile hitting certain vulnerable areas of the body can kill, even a thrown rock or baseball can kill.

I did some ride alongs with police years ago and saw photos of what these hard rubber projectiles can do to a person... I would not want to be on the receiving end.

pdxleaf · May 1, 2020

Not a gun owner but I get the interest.
My interest in guns started in the Army. They are fun to shoot. I really wanted that expert marksmanship badge and was able to earn it and keep it for four years. As a training NCO, I ran several qualification ranges safely.
For awhile I was in California and got into old Colts. I couldn't afford a vintage pistol so bought a long barrell 22 newer Colt single action, which was a great, cheap ammo range gun. Then a stainless steel 9 mm S&W followed, which got less range time due to the cost of rounds. My last purchase was a lever action Winchester purchased from a pawn shop in Reno. Reminded me of the rifleman tv series.

My best story is when we came back from desert storm. It was a bit chaotic. We ended up flying a 747 commercial plane with all military aboard to the East coast, states. From there, we split up and took a commercial civilian flight to our home unit. But we had our M16s. The airline wanted us to give up our weapons and we said no way. What to do? We ended up breaking down our weapons, putting them in our duffle bags in baggage and carrying the bolts in our pockets. Pretty slick I thought.

I no longer have guns. For self defense my wife has an ash baseball bat under the bed. I live in a city and don't hunt. If I did hunt I would likely have a shotgun for bird or a 30-30. I see no reason to own a military weapon.
I understand this is a principle to many people. I hope people who disagree with me can respect my decision to not own a gun as I understand theirs to own a gun, although I cringe when I see pictures of men carrying military style weapons in public. It is not a respect inducing vision. I prefer vintage watches and Volkswagens to guns.

Afterthought. I lived in Alaska for 3 and a half years and Minnesota for 7 years. I have seen and camped with both black bears and Grizzlies. There were many stories of bad encounters when a hiker shot a bear. It just pisses off the bear. Slugs get stuck in a Grizzly's skull and it annoys them. People without guns leave the bears alone. People with guns get freaked out when they see the bear stand up when the bear tries to get a better look because of their bad eyesight. They shoot, piss off the bear, get mauled. Guns give a false sense of security.

I will leave it here. Sorry for the long post.

valkyrie_rider · May 1, 2020

Recently acquired this beauty! Made in 1999/2000, less than 50 shots down the pipe the previous owner even included 3 speed loaders and the scope as a package.

The Father · May 1, 2020

larryganz
We run into bears all the time, and they haven't discovered fire - but they know how to get past 2 bungee cords holding the trash can shut, like this one in front of my house.

Three different bears spent some time in our yard last summer. I hate walking the dog after dark, but carry bear spray and 1000 lumen light, with a .357 magnum as backup.

PS: About 10 years ago I did indeed have to fire my .38 at a bear that was chasing my wife and dog, and she backed off after I hit the rocks in front of it's feet with a slug (the bear, not my wife). I even made the news.

Come on, that can’t be real. I can “bearly” believe this. Your neighbor has a pet bear. That’s one of those retired circus bears, he probably rides a bike with a hat.

I’ll take a mangy coyote any day over a bear. Stay bear free.

valkyrie_rider · May 1, 2020

@larryganz of course it always depends on shot placement and ammo type (i.e. bullet type + how hot the load is), but is 357 magnum enough of 'bear medicine' for your neighborhood?
😀

larryganz · May 2, 2020

The Father
Come on, that can’t be real. I can “bearly” believe this. Your neighbor has a pet bear. That’s one of those retired circus bears, he probably rides a bike with a hat.

I’ll take a mangy coyote any day over a bear. Stay bear free.

Actually 3 different bears visiting the house, with another one of whom I didn't have picture - all from last summer.

larryganz · May 2, 2020

valkyrie_rider
@larryganz of course it always depends on shot placement and ammo type (i.e. bullet type + how hot the load is), but is 357 magnum enough of 'bear medicine' for your neighborhood?
😀

I usually carry 125gr Barnes-X .357 for 2-legged predators, and switch to a deep penetrating 158gr Gold Dot for late night walks. The 158gr Gold Dot don't expand well like the lighter ones, so they go over 20 inches in gel. In the S&W 637 I had during the "bear incident" I was carrying Bufallo Bore 158gr +p LSWCHP that clock at about 1000 fps from a snubby.

The bear incident was interesting. In September 2008 I was inside the house listening to music with headphones and the kids came running into the house screaming, "A BEAR, A BEAR! IT GOT SNICKERS!" (our dog) and I ran out and saw a huge black bear at the opening of the garage. My son had been walking the dog with the leash tied to his ebike handlebars, while my wife was transferring dog food from the bag to a bin in the garage; and when my wife went into the house for a minute to grab something the bear apparently had wandered in as my son was coming home with the dog.

The bear charged my son, and the dog and bear were both on their hind legs swatting at each other as my son dropped his bike and ran into the house screaming, "BEAR!". The dog probably saved his life, and she was bruised but otherwise unharmed.

I came out and grabbed a long broom in the garage, and was actually swinging the broom and yelling at the bear to get it to go away, while holding back on firing my .38 pistol, while my wife went out to the street to get the dog. But the bear would not leave and just kept grunting at me like she was trying to tell me something.

The bear was almost like waiting for something, didn't want to leave; and since it was not seeming to be very aggressive I held back, knowing a .38 special would just tick her off. It was simply what I had in my pocket at the time, and when you have to act in an instant you don't run to the safe and punch in the combo and grab the shotgun.

With the bear at the side of the house near the garage, my wife went wide to get the dog down at the bottom of the driveway, and then came back into the far side of the garage with the dog, when the bear suddenly charged them and I snapped off a shot real quick, which startled the bear and she stopped. With all the adrenaline, the shot sounded like a squib, very quiet or muffled. The round hit the landscaping river rocks right in front of the bear's feet, as I had jerked the trigger in my rush.

With the charge halted I backed up to get back into the garage and then into the house, when I heard stuff falling off the shelves in the garage, and when I looked up I saw two small bear cubs on top of the shelves inside the garage! This was a mama bear protecting her cubs inside my garage. My neighbors across the street saw everything - they took pictures and gave them to the news who came to interview me and posted the pics and video on TV.

We called the DOW and 911, and while talking to them I peeked into the garage and saw one of the cubs had climbed onto the top of the open overhead garage door. So, I hit the close button and as the door started to move down the frightened cub jumped back onto the shelves and down, and they both ran out of the garage. The person on the phone with me was freaked out that I even opened the door between the laundry room and the garage to see if they were gone. Probably not my brightest moment. The neighbors got video of the bears crossing the street after that. It turns out this same bear had charged these same neighbors previously, and chased them into their gated patio. So the DOW decided they had to be put down. [edit for higher Rez video]

ras47 · May 2, 2020

The last time I went camping in bear country I had a little something in my pack for emergencies. The venerable .454 Casull by Freedom Arms, on loan from a family member. This round is not for the faint of heart nor for the slight of build. 😀

Waltesefalcon · May 12, 2020

In the past week I wound up working on two guns for friends. The first was an older PPK/S that had gotten wet in its holster and developed some rust. I used the trusty old copper penny method and it cleaned up nicely enough. The second was an old strike era Colt Agent that was out of time. It had just been bought last week and failed to run on its first outing. It turned out to simply be filthy, a quick tear down and clean fixed it right up. While it's still ugly it runs just fine now.

voere · May 16, 2020

Waltesefalcon
In the past week I wound up working on two guns for friends. The first was an older PPK/S that had gotten wet in its holster and developed some rust. I used the trusty old copper penny method and it cleaned up nicely enough. The second was an old strike era Colt Agent that was out of time. It had just been bought last week and failed to run on its first outing. It turned out to simply be filthy, a quick tear down and clean fixed it right up. While it's still ugly it runs just fine now.

Nice work

larryganz · May 18, 2020

Gave my son a Pelican case for his Sig P365, that can hold the pistol and green laser with a 10 round mag inside, and 3 more mags, including 12 and 15 rounders.

Waltesefalcon · May 28, 2020

Taking some advice from this forum I decided to up my home protection game and bought a bayonet for the ole Garand.