Selling of watches that are unserviced

Archer · Jul 23, 2018

tyrantlizardrex
👍

I saw Roger Smith give a talk in London on Friday night, and someone asked how often his watches need a service... he said... I don't know.

He gave an example of a watch sold 10 years ago - the customer has ordered, and was collecting a second watch, so Roger gave his first watch a look over. Still running to the 3+ seconds a day it was at when it left the workshop 10 years ago, still lubricants where they need to be, and the watch is worn heavily.

I guess it really does depend.

On the other hand I've serviced watches that were just 5 years old, that the movement was completely trashed - I recall one Cal. 2500 co-axial in particular that was a complete mess inside after 5 years, requiring many replacement parts. I knew it was only 5 years old not only because the owner told me so, but it was an LE that had only barely been on the market for 5 years, so there was no doubt about the service interval. The owner was a builder who wore it to the job site every day - not swinging a hammer all day, but just running the jobs and pitching in here and there occasionally with clean up, etc. It had what I would call normal wear on the outside, but the inside was a horror show...

Cheers, Al

tyrantlizardrex · Jul 23, 2018

Had an interesting conversation about Roger's versions of the "Daniels Co-Axial" vs. the one that Omega use commercially.

He designs watches to be as robust, as accurate, and as beautiful as possible (with no real cost constraints) - I get the distinct impression that his version of the Co-Axial escapement (and probably the rest of the watch), is a whole different animal - but sells at 20 times (plus) the retail price of most Omega Co-Axial watches.

Fascinating stuff, but reminded me that A, is not the same as B, no matter what the marketing says.

Syrte · Jul 23, 2018

ddurham
In which case how can any self-respecting vintage watch enthusiast offer a valuable treasure for which the service history is unknown but which ¨runs fine¨?

U ulackfocus
Why ask me? How should I know why some people lie & bullshit in their listings?
Oh wait - I do know: they want $$$$$.

Well I'm sorry to say, you are hereby given notice that I will have to offer what you consider "lies and bullshit" in a couple of listings I'm thinking about for consolidation purposes -- because I have several watches that run GREAT and they have not been serviced in my possession.
Thankfully I will be keeping most of them to myself, which I look forward to mistreating as long as I want. 😝 ::stirthepot::

cimo · Jul 23, 2018

This thread has spurred a few questions for me, the first being: what is the impact of daily use on a watch movement?

I don't mean excessive hard use, such as frequent exposure to water or shocks or chemicals. But if you took two identical watches and ran them each for five years straight, one in a watch winder and one on the wrist of your average joe, would the movements look different after the same time period?

ClarendonVintage · Jul 23, 2018

cimo
what is the impact of daily use on a watch movement?

Interested to know now, since this is never me 😜

Deafboy · Jul 23, 2018

My first three vintage watches were serviced by a local "watchmaker". He has no formal training, but his pricing is relatively low and -probably- does a decent job if the watch is already in respectable condition. As I started getting more watches I decided to do the service myself. I put in a lot of time doing the service but really enjoy it. I also try to follow best practices as described by @Archer, @ChrisN, @Canuck, etc. Being a tech geek and an accuracy nut, I also adjust all my watches to 6 positions for best timekeeping. Unless the watch is really old (> 90 years) and unstable because of wear, I typically obtain a delta of under 15 seconds/day and regulated to well within 5 seconds /day. I take pride that my vintage watches are actually running better than new.

watchknut · Jul 23, 2018

I have 2 watches in my collection that I know were properly serviced...my Air King that I had serviced in 2000, and my DRSD that was RSC serviced in May of this year.

I am awful about servicing...I rarely keep a watch long enough to warrant a service, and always try to buy ones that are working.

The ones that aren’t working, I get my watchmaker to get them up to speed, and sometimes he fully services them, but I don’t sell as such as I am never to going to transfer a warranty on a vintage watch.

The key is letting the buyer know what they are getting...if it is losing 5 minutes a day or gaining 30 seconds, no surprises.

As long as you are honest, your watches will not get returned and your buyers will be happy.

Let’s face it, if we wanted easy to maintain watches that kept perfect time, we would all own a quartz Seiko...or if you are @ulackfocus, a quartz JLC.

Deafboy · Jul 23, 2018

watchknut
..or if you are @ulackfocus, a quartz JLC.

Bamm!
😁

cicindela · Jul 23, 2018

Deafboy
Bamm!
😁

Hey he had had to change the batteries 2 on that thing that I know of. 👍

ulackfocus · Jul 23, 2018

The Reverso of Misfortune didn't last an entire 24 hours with me, but it will live on forever in infamy.

ddurham · Jul 24, 2018

watchknut
Let’s face it, if we wanted easy to maintain watches that kept perfect time, we would all own a quartz Seiko...or if you are @ulackfocus, a quartz JLC.

As far as I'm concerned this isn't about keeping perfect time, it's more about basic care for a timepiece. A fully serviced vintage watch will probably not keep time as well as a new one, mechanical or not, but it will last longer than an unserviced vintage watch.
Of course what anyone does with their own watches is their own business, but to put a vintage watch on offer for which the service history is unknown, and claim that it runs perfectly means that the watch has been wound and run in a potentially damaging state of disrepair. Simply strikes me as irresponsible and ultimately disrespectful.

Davidt · Jul 24, 2018

ddurham
As far as I'm concerned this isn't about keeping perfect time, it's more about basic care for a timepiece. A fully serviced vintage watch will probably not keep time as well as a new one, mechanical or not, but it will last longer than an unserviced vintage watch.
Of course what anyone does with their own watches is their own business, but to put a vintage watch on offer for which the service history is unknown, and claim that it runs perfectly means that the watch has been wound and run in a potentially damaging state of disrepair. Simply strikes me as irresponsible and ultimately disrespectful.

Let's keep things in proportion.

I don't think many people are winding, wearing and selling high end or even vintage 321 Caliber watches (or other vintage movements of reasonable value, with hard to find parts), however the same approach does not need to be applied to a $350 basic Omega, for which parts are generally plentiful. One just needs to be honest in any sales descriptions.

Also, disrespectful to whom?

ddurham · Jul 24, 2018

Davidt
Also, disrespectful to whom?

To the watch.

Davidt · Jul 24, 2018

ddurham
To the watch.

So everyone should service a crapped out, gold plated Geneve worth about $200 to avoid disrespecting it?!

Give me a break.

ddurham · Jul 24, 2018

Davidt
So everyone should service a crapped out, gold plated Geneve worth about $200 to avoid disrespecting it?!

Naturally not if you sell it as such, but after a service, or at the very least an inspection, it would no longer be "crapped out".

Syrte · Jul 24, 2018

ddurham
A fully serviced vintage watch will probably not keep time as well as a new one, mechanical or not, but it will last longer than an unserviced vintage watch.

to put a vintage watch on offer for which the service history is unknown, and claim that it runs perfectly means that the watch has been wound and run in a potentially damaging state of disrepair. Simply strikes me as irresponsible and ultimately disrespectful.

ddurham
To the watch.

1/ Those watches (mine at least) have been around for over 80 years and will outlive me at least.
Who's to say that the ones that were serviced are the ones that fare best or last longer? In fact all indications point to the opposite because the unserviced watches are the ones being used the least.

2/ if a seasoned watchmaker with a clientele of discerning vintage collectors, who always says immediately "don't wear this without service" if that's what he thinks -- if that person looking at the movement says, "it's fine" - I trust him. As others have pointed out, there are different schools and this is a calculated risk.

3/ Watches are just tools. IMHO Talking about "respect"/"disrespect" for watches is disrespectful (of humans).
And with that.... I am moving on to other threads.
Best regards

ChrisN · Jul 24, 2018

Seems there is another way to sell any broken/unserviced watches...😁

I like all my watches to work and run correctly but, when buying, I don't look for a serviced watch as it only costs me my time to service it and bring it to spec. As long as the seller makes it clear that the watch is serviced or not, I don't see any harm in selling with or without.

Cheers, Chris

Davidt · Jul 24, 2018

ddurham
Naturally not if you sell it as such, but after a service, or at the very least an inspection, it would no longer be "crapped out".

A service isn't going to sort out a water damaged dial, incorrect hands and worn out gold plating.

It's down to individual opinions to a degree, but recommending having a full service on every 321 is certainly a different proposition to saying every 1010 powered Geneve should be serviced.

tikkathree · Jul 24, 2018

I'm flying on instinct here but I'd suggest that 100% of Mr & Mrs Joe Public, you know the people who buy most of the watches in the world and who don't populate places like this, never dream of getting their watches serviced.
Further, if you knock out the small percentage of watch geeks who have the technical capability to dismantle and service their watches, I'd expect the majority of us don't bother either unless one of two things:
1. something's gone wrong with a watch already in the collection and servicing / repair are essential to either future ownership or selling on at an acceptable value.
2. you've reached a state of nirvana/madness whereby the desire to buy more watches has gone completely and the only legitimate spend is on preventative maintenance.

These watch geeks I read about to buy watches and then don't wear them: are they watch geeks or spenders with a taste in watches? I dunno.

ChrisN · Jul 24, 2018

tikkathree
I'm flying on instinct here but I'd suggest that 100% of Mr & Mrs Joe Public, you know the people who buy most of the watches in the world and who don't populate places like this, never dream of getting their watches serviced.

I would say about 25% of my work is from non collectors and usually, the reason is that the watch has stopped working so I'd agree in general. There are a few who read the instructions from the manufacturer and think it's worth following those and servicing regularly. It's hard nowadays if you're not in a community like this to even find a watchmaker as the days of there being one on every high street are long gone.

Syrte
1/ Those watches (mine at least) have been around for over 80 years and will outlive me at least.
Who's to say that the ones that were serviced are the ones that fare best or last longer? In fact all indications point to the opposite because the unserviced watches are the ones being used the least.

It is probably that they stopped at some point and were never repaired so aren't used at all. When people ask what I do, a very large proportion will immediately exclaim that they have a watch in a drawer that hasn't run for years and "can you fix it?". These can be good finds as were worn for 10 or 15 years and, if the case is still water resistant, are often in very good condition. It's the ones without water resistance that are depressing to work on as rust is a real pain. The best are those that are water resistant and have no obvious way into the case as those haven't had people fiddling with them to try and make them work.

Cheers, Chris

Selling of watches that are unserviced

Archer

tyrantlizardrex

Syrte

cimo

ClarendonVintage

Deafboy

watchknut

Deafboy

cicindela

ulackfocus

ddurham

Davidt

ddurham

Davidt

ddurham

Syrte

ChrisN

Davidt

tikkathree

ChrisN

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