A related question for the more experienced - It's my understanding that winding and running a vintage watch that has not been serviced for many years, and within which the lubricants have long since dried up, may be detrimental to the watch and could cause damage.

For this very rason I've always had vintage watches serviced before ever winding them. I feel that they're in my care while they're with me and to do otherwise would be disrespectful to these survivors. I hate to think of them having been passed from one owner to another without anyone having even had them looked at.

Most of my vintage watches are never used, they're just in my care and get wound every now and again to keep them in good health.

Am I wrong in my assumptions and just too sentimental?

 

You're 100% correct.

So there's some risk involved in running and using unserviced watches - they likely won't run at their best, and you may cause damage or speed up wear of parts - but it's fair to say that in this crowd, it's a calculated risk.

 

that could become quite expensive if you don't find parts...

 

Unfortunately, watches are terrible communicators in this regard...

 

There's no need to wind a watch you are not using...

 

Yes it is. What's funny is that I was talking to a watchmaker (which has been recommended by some members here) about servicing a watch that was never oiled, and he told me that he wouldn't bother doing so if it runs accurately with a strong power reserve.

When he serviced my A386, that had been used long and hard without maintenance (watch ran 2 hours late per day), a couple of parts were worn & had to be replaced. It ran great afterwards, so it got me thinking if there really is a golden rule that we should all follow, or if should be down to personal preference (how many watches do you have, how often do you wear them, etc.)...

 

I often hate the comparison but is this not disimilar to vintage cars? Does it not help to turn them over once in a while just to keep them in top form?

 

Can you please explain a mechanical watch that was "never oiled"?

 

Look at my pic above. This happens if there is not enough oil. In particular with a strong power reserve, no oil is deadly for a watch. It is still running well, but there is much abrasion. Certainly, @Archer can explain it better and has more pics.

 

In general, I'd agree with this if you aren't going to wind a watch. If you are though, it needs to be serviced BEFORE something breaks. You definitely shouldn't say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" about your car & oil changes!

 

There's nothing to be gained by running a watch if you are not wearing it. The oils are held in place in the jewels and pivots by capillary action, so it's not going anywhere. This isn't a traditional gearbox where you want oils to circulate and get everywhere - in fact watchmakers take great pains to ensure that oil is only applied in very specific places, and steps are taken to ensure that it doesn't spread from where it's placed.

 

In which case how can any self-respecting vintage watch enthusiast offer a valuable treasure for which the service history is unknown but which ¨runs fine¨?

 

Why ask me? How should I know why some people lie & bullshit in their listings?

Oh wait - I do know: they want $$$$$.

 

Never serviced after it left the factory.
All I'm saying is that, if you talk to 4 different watchmakers, and each one of them has a totally different view on a basic matter (servicing intervals), maybe there's not a higher truth, but it's more of a matter of opinions, based on experience ?

EDIT for full disclosure: I don't wind the vintage watches that I know haven't been serviced yet. I'm just thinking out loud on a forum as I still haven't formed an intelligent opinion about the matter.

 

Many of the eBay sellers bought a grab bag of random watches from Goodwill. They’re hoping for a piece of treasure but will list what is sellable on eBay. They won’t service them unless it’s something that doesn’t work and would gain immense value by functioning. The others they’ll list in as-is “unserviced” condition. I always interpret unserviced to mean “needs service”. I’m ok with that because these are for my personal enjoyment. I’ve got a cheaper watchmaker to handle less sophisticated pieces and a more expensive, Rolex certified repairman for more intricate pieces or pieces I’d rather leave in a vaulted, secured setting.

 

There are certainly opinions that vary on when a watch should be serviced, but you have to take them in their appropriate context.

The key thing I've always said is that there is no single answer that is appropriate for every situation. My answer when someone asks me how often to service a watch is always "it depends."

For example would I advise servicing a Seiko 5 with a 7S26 movement in it? Not at all - let it run until it craps out, and replace the movement. It would make zero financial sense to service that movement in my view because replacement movements can be bought very cheaply (at least the last time I swapped one I suppose).

Would I apply that same logic to any highly collectible vintage watch where replacement parts are scarce? Hell no!

So the watch that was "never oiled" after leaving the factory, that your watchmaker said don't bother oiling...

It could be that this watch left the factory 4 years ago, so it's a relatively new watch, and he's not only put it on a timing machine, but has performed a detailed visual inspection under a microscope, and has determined the oils are fine, and it doesn't need service. In that case I would agree with him completely.

It could be that this is a vintage watch that had good amplitude on the timing machine, but was completely dry inside. If the watch has no real value, and is not worth the money put into servicing it, then he still may be right, at least from a monetary point of view if parts are readily available, and you don't really care that it will cost you a bit more when it does come time for service (presumably when it stops running).

It could be that you only plan to wear this watch once a year on a special occasion - if that's the case then you won't be doing a lot of extra damage, so service may not be needed right away.

So as you can see, there are a lot of circumstances that may lead a watchmaker to tell you not servicing it is fine, and they may not necessarily be contradictory to when a watchmaker may tell you a watch needs servicing before it's used. When people post statements made by their watchmaker without context, they are often misconstrued by people as the way forward for all situations. So your watchmaker telling you what he did may be perfectly sensible, or completely out to lunch - no way to know based on what you have shared with us about the watch, it's value, and how you plan to use it. Not picking on you here, just using your post as an example, as this sort of thing happens frequently on forums.

One thing that is for certain "not opinion" is physics, and that is what it at play when a watch runs dry. No amount of justifying in someone's head is going to change that fact that when the watch is running and it's dry, it will cause wear. Even then, if it's a modern watch and you plan on using the company service center to maintain it, then letting the watch run until it dies may make the most financial sense, because the service centers have a fixed price (with a lot built in to cover replacement parts if they are needed or not) so it likely won't cost you anything extra if you service it regularly, or run it until it stops.

So when you say this is a very basic matter, in terms of the physics of what will happen without service, you are completely correct. But taking in all the other factors that can affect the decision making process, it becomes a lot less clear. Again there is no one size fits all answer here....like many things in life.

Cheers, Al

 

What about the situation where I bought a watch that was apparently freshly serviced from an apparently reputable member, only to find out it completely hasn't? Am I to assume that the seller didn't know, and that probably the guy who serviced it was a monkey?

 

I saw Roger Smith give a talk in London on Friday night, and someone asked how often his watches need a service... he said... I don't know.

He gave an example of a watch sold 10 years ago - the customer has ordered, and was collecting a second watch, so Roger gave his first watch a look over. Still running to the 3+ seconds a day it was at when it left the workshop 10 years ago, still lubricants where they need to be, and the watch is worn heavily.

I guess it really does depend.

 

Just some basic comments on lubrication of a typical train in a watch, which are as taught by the British Horological Institute.
1. As Al has said, the oil is held in the correct place by capillary action.
2. This oil forms a surface layer which adheres to the parts (this is akin to snow skiing where you wax your ski surfaces) so that there is no contact between them. We aim for very smooth surfaces but still, nothing is completely smooth and the forces between the pivot and the jewel (for example) are all transmitted through this layer. As that layer reduces, it is replenished from the reserve in the jewel. This is known as "boundary lubrication" in a Stribeck curve. When there is no layer because the oil has been used or dried out, the parts will wear out.
3. A car engine, for example, is in the "hydrodynamic area" of the Stribeck curve. It is completely different as, when you start the engine, an oil pump sends oil at high pressure (40-100 psi for example) to each bearing and the parts run on a wedge of oil because of that pressure. This is akin to water skiing where you build a wedge of water under the ski and all the forces are transmitted through that.
4. There is absolutely no need to wind your watch occasionally if you don't use it and that should be clear from the above. All you are doing is using up the oil in the reservoirs.

If you talk to 4 different watchmakers, you can get different opinions but, this is a completely unregulated business and many have had little or no training so just say what they "feel" is correct. A large proportion of watches that come in will have damage and run well in one position only (dial up) so there is no particular standard that people work to unless they have had their work reviewed by some external reputable source. So, see if he/she can explain their thinking if you have that sort of relationship with him/her. I can explain mine without hand waving.

He/she doesn't care. You can run your watch for as long as you see fit and then service it when it doesn't run any more. All it will mean is that he/she will replace more parts as they will have worn out because you have contact between the bearing and the pivot (see above). What I say in general to customers who ask depends on how old their watch is and I would be sure that other watchmakers will have slightly different opinions but I can explain mine:
If it's vintage and parts are hard to find/expensive - service it regularly every 5 to 12 years, depending on usage.
If it's modern and parts are easy to obtain/inexpensive - service it to the manufacturers specified intervals but, if you don't want to, then don't.

In the end, it is your watch so do with it as you wish and every watchmaker has too much work so I don't anyone trying to drum up work based on convincing you that that you need regular servicing. The advice above is a little odd though as your watchmaker should know that in some cases, a dry watch will run with good amplitude...

Cheers, Chris