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Seamasters and Constellations value, market development and discussion

  1. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Hello fellow Omega enthusiasts,

    I'm relatively new to the world of vintage watches, and currently in the process of scouring the internet for a specific watch. Now there's an interesting observation on watch prices I made and I'm interested in what you guys think about this.

    So, there are countless threads on different watches, how to's, what to look out for etc. Now I noticed that there is a very big difference between what is said about watch worth/willing to pay and actual prices of listings and settled amounts of auctions on eBay, chrono24 and others. Currently, most watches are listed well over $1000 (even redials), and some over $2000. Now some threads are a bit older and might not apply to the current market situation. So I was wondering, has value significantly increased due to market development, increased demand or are stores/dealers trying to take advantage of general buyer ignorance.

    There are some watches (like an all original black dial seamaster deville date) i'm interested but asking prices are well over $1500 and I can't ignore the many threads stating a value of less than half that price.

    So, what do you guys think about this?
     
  2. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    Welcome to the forum and kudos on doing your research before you buy.
    Posting pics or a link to the SM in question (I am assuming the one in your avatar) would give us an example to help illustrate your question. Real black dialed Seamaster are rare (silver was more popular at the time) and most on the maket are redials to mimick the “Don Draper” watch which was a fantasy redial and not an original piece.
    There is a lot of speculative sellers out there- particularly on Chrono24- I avoid that site like the plague. Be patient and watch the sales forum here and for the love of god- do not jump on one on eBay without getting more experienced eyes on them. A redial does not improve value-sellers would like to think it does- but it destroys the collectibility of a watch.
     
    connieseamaster and Hammond123 like this.
  3. KingCrouchy Feb 9, 2020

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    Just a little question, to my understanding there aren't any Seamaster De Ville with a black dial that aren't a redial. So finding one could be tricky.
     
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  4. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Thanks for your advice!
    I will search for pictures and edit this post when found.
    The watches I'm "hunting" for are Seamaster DeVille date with black dial and stick hands (not a fan of dauphine hands)
    and a Constellation black dial with stick hands
    both with steel cases and dogleg or similar lugs (not the cushion)

    Do you mean currently or they never existed? I did see some claiming to be original
     
  5. STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Feb 9, 2020

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    Several things ( with made up figures for explaining )

    First the watch that is in your avatar is a cool watch even for a redial but the problem is it’s a $200 redialed watch that someone wants to fleece a newbie of $1500. (If it was a $300 price after the redial it would be OK for a daily wearer but a rip off at anything more)

    Dealer and pseudo dealers have grown exponentially and pushed prices up significantly over the last 5 years.

    Flippers see a excellent watch for $1500 and think their $700 average condition is worth $1500 now.

    And lastly to your point many newbies will come here asking about a watch at a dealer for say $1200 when the going rate is $650 on forums and eBay.
    Members will let them know but due to their inexperience they would not know how to find or look for the $650.

    The researching is the fun part of the game, and the thing that costs the least $ and saves the most $
     
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  6. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    I think @KingCrouch may be right but I’m not an expert in the variants of the deville’s. I do known there were black seamasters, one of the most coveted was the 166.010- here is an example of a great one- and priced right. If this were silver It would have been worth about 2/3 of this.

    https://omegaforums.net/threads/vin...166-010-black-dial-circa-1967-1275usd.102120/
     
  7. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Very insightful thank you!
    I would say this applies to me as well. I do have to say that every listing available online today looks to adopt this increased price strategy. I do wonder, when everybody starts to buy/sell for more like observed on the many listings, does that not make the market
     
    Edited Feb 9, 2020
  8. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    Keep doing what you’re doing- and don’t get impulsive! Paying the newbie tax sucks.
     
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  9. Peemacgee Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers Feb 9, 2020

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    Firstly, welcome.

    Black dialled Omegas are a mine-field even for experienced collectors.
    Finding an original one in good condition is quite rare.

    I don’t think there is such a beast as a dogleg Connie with stick hands, the later round cased Connies and C-cases do appear with them.

    Best thing is to narrow down what you are really after and focus on learning as much as you can about that watch reference

    IIRC it’s the black dialled cross hair Don Draper watch that doesn’t exist.
     
  10. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Alright, thank you. This is all great advice. This leaves me to the final question: What would you pay for a black dialed original seamaster de ville steel case, and how much would you pay for a original black dialed constellation steel case.
    I do wonder now since you mentioned a "Don Draper watch". My focus for the past 2 weeks has been on finding this Seamaster automatic in original condition. Does this watch even exist?

    View attachment 925313
     
    Knipsel.JPG
    Edited Feb 9, 2020
  11. cristos71 Feb 9, 2020

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    That's not true, here's one I picked up recently

    2019-11-28 09.23.41-1.jpg
     
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  12. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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  13. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    And the pic you posted I beleive is a redial with 99% certainty. Font color is off and second track is heavy handed for line weight....but I would be happy to be proven wrong
    Then we get into lumed hands with a non-lume dial
     
  14. Rochete Feb 9, 2020

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    Not enough info. Price one would pay depends on several factors besides model, dial color and case material. Condition alone makes for a whole continuum heavily influencing price, then some references are rarer and hence more expensive. State of movement also important, and so on. Each vintage watch is unique and so is its price.

    That's a bad redial. I have never seen that watch with an original black dial, I suspect it doesn't exist.
     
    Edited Feb 9, 2020
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  15. Shabbaz Feb 9, 2020

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    Ouch! Still hurts!
     
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  16. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Beautiful watch!
    That's helpful, thanks!
    Yeah that's a redial. I used for example purposes
    I understand, I just find it incredibly hard to put a price on a watch when all there are all these overpriced listings.
    Let's say, automatic movement, serviced, in very good condition, some case scratches nothing serious, original dial with minor damages/coloured spots.
     
    Edited Feb 9, 2020
  17. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    I think the listing from several months ago that I posted above was a good example of what an exceptional black SM will go for- about $1.2k...and that was was a known original in spectacular condition. Spotty and imperfect- even with a service, less than $1k. But as mentioned above, some references are worth more than others
     
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  18. Rochete Feb 9, 2020

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    No one said it's easy. It isn't rocket science but requires time and dedication. Have you checked out the Private Sales Subforum here? Sold watches (not merely listed) are a good aproximation to what 'we' pay. Otherwise if you ask for a specific watch here we'll give our opinion on it. Time costs money too, if you're willing to wait you'd normally get a better priced watch than if you want it now. The average OF dweller is a patient guy, so our 'price I'd pay' is normally lower than what you see out there.
     
  19. Hammond123 Feb 9, 2020

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    Thank you, I have a much better understanding now. I will continue my research
     
  20. JwRosenthal Feb 9, 2020

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    It’s all in the details with these watches, read the posts on how to spot fakes. Line weights, font styles, text placement, “TSWISS MADET” on post ‘63 watches and when the T’s are applicable (lume vs non lume dials/hands). Omega was very consistent with the exception of a few one-off models or dial variations. If something seems off- it’s usually a red flag