not sure where to post, also in the sellers review section... mods pls feel free to do what you think is right. Thank you.

Hi All (similar topic on VRF, RF and OF... the more the merrier)

Who:
ThePunisherXIX (user handle on the forums)
[email protected]
Other possible names / related people
- Giorgio (this is what he signs with) Pignataro (this is the last name on the package I received) - 70026 Modugno - Italy. The full address I have is actually returning a funny on google maps... can share details if needed.
- Account owner: Floro Palma - bank account: IT75 P076 0104 0000 0104 7846 579 (this is where I sent my money to)


I will keep it short as this started early december 2020. I will also keep it as factual as possible so you make up your own mind. All VRF PM's/Emails available if someone wants to double-check.

What:
This blue SF insert FS on VRF here:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/viewtopic.php?p=597404#p597404$
A couple of uploaded pics from the ad in case the original post disappears :






How much:
We agreed on 1000EUR shipped (10% down vs. asked 1100EUR).

When:
December 2020. Agreed on December 8th. Paid by wire by me on December 9th . Money arrived December 11th.

What happened - Part I
- The seller was very reactive pre-paiment, nice and polite and all.
- After a few reminders, the seller provided a tracking number on December 18th, which in the christmas period, in covid-crippled Italy, seemed ok to me. The official printed stamp says December 29th - the seller said he inquired about the issue and the postal services told him christmas+covid+etc. delays. I can buy that...
- Interestingly, I get a PM from another gentleman on VRF who says my name was provided as a reference by ThePunisherXIX... I explain this gentleman than I cannot refer him yet as I have yet to receive my package. After a couple of PM's back and forth, he wishes me luck as he thinks ThePunisherXIX is a scammer.
- Package received on January 11th, actually decently quick from the 29th... much slower vs. 18th but still acceptable, italy, covid, christmas, etc.

What happened - Part II
- This is where it gets juicy. In the package, I find this, which we will all agree is not what I paid for...



- I instantly ping the seller on January 11th via VRF PM. No answer.
- I then try email on January 14th, the seller apologies replies there probably was a confusion and he swapped two packages. My blue one went somewhere else. He apologizes and says he will chase it and make both buyers whole and he will ship me the blue one as soon as he recovers it.
- Then over the course of Jan-Feb-Mar, many "Hey Giorgio, any progress, please update me thanks" emails from my side... and many "Chinese new year / He's away travelling for work / he doesn't answer my emails / I will let you know asap / it should be ok soon" emails back

The unfolding on March 20th:
- On March 20th I sent the following note:
"Ciao Giorgio. I will admit I have lost any hope. Can you please refund my money and I will ship the other insert back as soon after that. Thank you. Paul"
- I got the following answer same day:
"the other insert in basically the same, perfect for a Blue Tudor, correct Mark 3 and you not be able to track another for less than 2000 euro, so really it is a great deal on your side. Is passed a lot of time and cannot take it back atm, if you wanted a refund you should have sent it back before friend. And now i’m also moving from Italy to Emirates for business and not be able to take in shipping. "
- I then send another message again on the same day where I explain that I have left him some time instead of not calling out in the open what happened, and that I feel cheated. I also bring forward that I am not a Rolex expert and I cannot sell this on my own as Vintage Rolex is a minefield and don't want to put my name next to it. I also explain that it doesn't have to be a refund, a "new" wire works perfectly with me. I'm also offering to cover the cost to ship to UAE, etc... basically trying to keep every door open.

I haven't gotten an answer back since.

In the meantime, the community kindly helped call out that the insert I wrongly received is a fake.
Here on RF: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=795838
Here on VRF: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vin...sub-insert-help-please-thank-you-t266316.html
(hope I'm not breaking any rules here... apologies in advance if that's the case, please lmk)

Now - the first non-factual bit in that post, my analysis:
- One by one, every element is "borderline" but "possible"
- Multiple delays
- Different banking name and shipping-from address
- Shipping-from address that doesn't quite make google maps happy
- Accidentally swapped packages
- Slow communication after the sale when it was time to make the buyer(s) hole
- Doesn't the other guy who got my blue insert want his grey one, supposedly worth even more?

I guess everyone can make up their own minds, when all brought together, this screams scam to me. Obviously, if these are all mistakes in good faith, the one thing that seals the coffin here is the strange reasons behind the refusal to send money back ("I can't refund it's too late") and receive the insert back ("I am moving abroad I can't take shipping").

I am not much of a Rolex guy, most times I gravitate towards Omega as well as more affordable brands, and I have an immaculate buyer-seller track record on OF (see here https://omegaforums.net/search/15241249/?q=lonestar&o=date&c[node]=10). This unfortunately confirms that Vintage Rolex is a minefield, in case there was any doubt... I am more than happy to keep everyone posted in case this thread encourages the seller to make me whole in the next days, obviously.

all the best and stay safe,
Paul

 

I think there's no doubt this was just a classic scam. Very sorry to hear about that. It's interesting that VRF doesn't appear to have a sub-forum for seller reviews, which is a common theme of most of the other forums with sales listings. Does this seller have a history that you were able to track?

 

Arghh, sorry to hear that Paul, and thanks for sharing. As a general rule, I do not do business out of ITA for this reason. I'm sure there are good sellers out there, but more often than not, you're setup for disappointment. There is a reason why most insurers won't cover shipping to that country.

 

Cheers guys for the kind words. 1000EUR isn't the end of the world... it's mostly the frustration around the whole thing that is disgusting and the energy to manage it and all... and the sting of feeling you got possessed. oh well.

All the best,
Paul

 

That's not nice. I feel your frustration! No way of logging this with Italian police (one of them...assume the Guardia) You have shipping address & and an account... or am I just being naive?

 

pinging @kov

 

As I just said in the other thread...

They don't f***in care.

 

I have had a similar experience with an eBay purchase out of Germany. Bank Transfers are common on German eBay for some reason. It was a similar amount, and as you say it is annoying but not life changing. It has made me more careful, I was being a bit too trusting and slightly greedy for a rare thing.

More time checking out the seller is the best way of avoiding this, and if it's not possible to be totally confident in their online presence, Paypal. We all know this, but judgement gets cloudy when rare shiny things are involved.

Sorry for your loss, and I hope it doesn't taint the hobby for you.

 

I am very sorry to hear this Paul! I really hope some way or the other you are going to get your money back! It is so frustrating and annoying to have to deal with scammers!
Also you should write on orologi e passioni forum. I can help you with the translation if you want.

 

Thank you for the kind words and the help offer. I will steal your idea, and use google translate instead though.

Best
Paul

 

Thanks for sharing your painful, expensive lesson. Sorry this happened to you.