Hi All (similar topic on VRF, RF and OF... the more the merrier)

Who:
ThePunisherXIX (user handle on the forums)
Other possible names / related people
- Giorgio (this is what he signs with) Pignataro (this is the last name on the package I received) - 70026 Modugno - Italy. The full address I have is actually returning a funny on google maps... can share details if needed.
- Account owner: Floro Palma - bank account: IT75 P076 0104 0000 0104 7846 579 (this is where I sent my money to)


I will keep it short as this started early december 2020. I will also keep it as factual as possible so you make up your own mind. All VRF PM's/Emails available if someone wants to double-check.

What:
This blue SF insert FS on VRF here:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/viewtopic.php?p=597404#p597404$
A couple of uploaded pics from the ad in case the original post disappears :






How much:
We agreed on 1000EUR shipped (10% down vs. asked 1100EUR).

When:
December 2020. Agreed on December 8th. Paid by wire by me on December 9th . Money arrived December 11th.

What happened - Part I
- The seller was very reactive pre-paiment, nice and polite and all.
- After a few reminders, the seller provided a tracking number on December 18th, which in the christmas period, in covid-crippled Italy, seemed ok to me. The official printed stamp says December 29th - the seller said he inquired about the issue and the postal services told him christmas+covid+etc. delays. I can buy that...
- Interestingly, I get a PM from another gentleman on VRF who says my name was provided as a reference by ThePunisherXIX... I explain this gentleman than I cannot refer him yet as I have yet to receive my package. After a couple of PM's back and forth, he wishes me luck as he thinks ThePunisherXIX is a scammer.
- Package received on January 11th, actually decently quick from the 29th... much slower vs. 18th but still acceptable, italy, covid, christmas, etc.

What happened - Part II
- This is where it gets juicy. In the package, I find this, which we will all agree is not what I paid for...



- I instantly ping the seller on January 11th via VRF PM. No answer.
- I then try email on January 14th, the seller apologies replies there probably was a confusion and he swapped two packages. My blue one went somewhere else. He apologizes and says he will chase it and make both buyers whole and he will ship me the blue one as soon as he recovers it.
- Then over the course of Jan-Feb-Mar, many "Hey Giorgio, any progress, please update me thanks" emails from my side... and many "Chinese new year / He's away travelling for work / he doesn't answer my emails / I will let you know asap / it should be ok soon" emails back

The unfolding on March 20th:
- On March 20th I sent the following note:
"Ciao Giorgio. I will admit I have lost any hope. Can you please refund my money and I will ship the other insert back as soon after that. Thank you. Paul"
- I got the following answer same day:
"the other insert in basically the same, perfect for a Blue Tudor, correct Mark 3 and you not be able to track another for less than 2000 euro, so really it is a great deal on your side. Is passed a lot of time and cannot take it back atm, if you wanted a refund you should have sent it back before friend. And now i’m also moving from Italy to Emirates for business and not be able to take in shipping. "
- I then send another message again on the same day where I explain that I have left him some time instead of not calling out in the open what happened, and that I feel cheated. I also bring forward that I am not a Rolex expert and I cannot sell this on my own as Vintage Rolex is a minefield and don't want to put my name next to it. I also explain that it doesn't have to be a refund, a "new" wire works perfectly with me. I'm also offering to cover the cost to ship to UAE, etc... basically trying to keep every door open.

I haven't gotten an answer back since.

In the meantime, the community kindly helped call out that the insert I wrongly received is a fake.
Here on RF: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=795838
Here on VRF: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vin...sub-insert-help-please-thank-you-t266316.html
(hope I'm not breaking any rules here... apologies in advance if that's the case, please lmk)

Now - the first non-factual bit in that post, my analysis:
- One by one, every element is "borderline" but "possible"
- Multiple delays
- Different banking name and shipping-from address
- Shipping-from address that doesn't quite make google maps happy
- Accidentally swapped packages
- Slow communication after the sale when it was time to make the buyer(s) hole
- Doesn't the other guy who got my blue insert want his grey one, supposedly worth even more?

I guess everyone can make up their own minds, when all brought together, this screams scam to me. Obviously, if these are all mistakes in good faith, the one thing that seals the coffin here is the strange reasons behind the refusal to send money back ("I can't refund it's too late") and receive the insert back ("I am moving abroad I can't take shipping").

I am not much of a Rolex guy, most times I gravitate towards Omega as well as more affordable brands, and I have an immaculate buyer-seller track record on OF (see here https://omegaforums.net/search/15241249/?q=lonestar&o=date&c[node]=10). This unfortunately confirms that Vintage Rolex is a minefield, in case there was any doubt... I am more than happy to keep everyone posted in case this thread encourages the seller to make me whole in the next days, obviously.

all the best and stay safe,
Paul

 

Ciao Paul (no pun intended )

Sorry to read this. Hope you will find a way to solve this issue with the guy but as a more general note the vintage Rolex world doesn't seem to be more of a minefield than Italy actually is. For whatever you're about to buy from there.

I would never - literally never ever - send a wire to an italian bank account.

I've been victim of a scam a couple of years ago where I sent 2700€ to an italian account to buy a Speedmaster while, same day, I got evidence that pictures of the watch were stolen and the real watch belonged to a buddy/collector Guess what, a case was filed at my bank same day. They contacted the italian bank and notified them about the illegal activity of their client (account owner) and claimed the wire to be cancelled/returned. The remote bank didn't even reply to the request. They just don't f***in care. And my bank charged ~100 USD from my account for their useless claim. :facepalm2:: again)

To me, the rule is simple : I don't buy from Italy. I don't sell to Italy (except if the buyer sends a wire to my bank account but certainly no paypal or other credit card macchinazione). Might sound agressive or even offending towards a lot of italians who are certainly fair and honest people but if you do some research you'll find out that there is a massive number of similar cases documented on Internet.

Courage

 

Davide Parmegiani is from Italy.

Alfredo Paramico is Italian, and so are some of the most important vintage dealers in the world.

Very sorry for your 2700 $ Speedmaster experience, of course.

 

Very sorry to hear what happened to you Paul.

That insert you were supposed to receive had been for sale on Instagram (I tried to find the original post but nothing) for a while and it's artificially faded and probably fake too.

 

Cheers Chris for the kind words. Interestingly I did my homework on the blue one and shared the pics with one of the resident SF experts on VRF - as I had initial doubts too before the purchase. And he said it was ok...

Again - friggin' minefield.

 

Cheers Alexis. Sounds like you did offend a few Italians already Sorry to read about the time you got scammed out of 2700EUR (ouch).

a+
Paul

 

https://omegaforums.net/threads/ext...r-prototype-at-monaco-legend-auctions.120484/

Im not certain your examples strengthen the point you are trying to make...but I do agree not all the eggs are rotten...

 

Might? How funny. It does.

First of all, I'm so sad to hear that you and the OP were scammed by an italian, I really am.
I sincerely hope that @Lonestar can get his money back.

I'm at the same time grateful to this very forum for giving me the opportunity to know you better before dealing with you in any way about our common passion.
If "buy the seller" is the golden rule, I learned today I will never buy you.
It was definitely worth the effort.

Buon proseguimento.

 

Vintage was invented by Italian.

Some of the most important watch dealer in the world are Italian:John Goldberger (aka Auro Montabnari), Alfredo Paramico, Corrado Mattarelli, Marlon De Simone, Alessandro Ciani, Andrea Foffi.

Saying that Italians aren't good for vintage isn't racist, it's just crazy stupid.

 

Davide Parmegiani is a rock star, if it wasn't for pioneer like him who discovered and dignified the vintage market we wouldn't be here discussing about this wonderful passion.

 

Thanks everyone for the comments

I definitely don't want this thread to become a symbol of anti-italianism... Those who know me personally know that my last name definitely doesn't warrant that

I've edited the title of the topic to try to trigger less reactions going that way.

Over the course of the last couple of years I've been scammed, although to a lesser extent, by a Icelander and a German... Nothing against Italians in particular. There's rotten eggs everywhere unfortunately..

Maybe I'm just gullible after all

Al the best and stay safe

Paul

 

com’on..... you can’t say that

Only one bad experience

 

yay Matt, got my fingers burnt once : hard learned a lesson. Enough.

But every rule can get some exceptions, when I know and trust the buyer there’s (almost) no issue to buy from Italy. You’re safe