SAS Polarouter - Black Dial

Mazoue · Dec 18, 2017

The black dialled SAS Polarouter was for sale in a Parisian auction house as described above.

The seller of the gold SAS Polerouter lived near Marseille.

I agree that it's coincidental that both have surfaced in France in recent months but I'm not sure there are any other similarities.

Diabolik · Dec 18, 2017

Found both watches in a paris and marseilles auctions with movement marked HOX ... ?

The plot thickens.

Keep on searching and keep us updated on your findings. It is becoming a mystery wrapped in a riddle in an enigma ....

Mazoue · Dec 18, 2017

I perhaps ought to change the titles of the two threads as it's easy to get the two watches muddled up.

The Cal 138ss of the black dialled SAS Polarouter was indeed marked HOX and is likely to have been bought in a Paris vintage watch shop.

The Cal 69 of the gold Polerouter is not marked HOX. I don't know much about the origins of this one but I was told the original owner, who lived near Marseille, both travelled a great deal and bought from flea markets.

Mazoue · Jan 3, 2018

Christian at Watchguy is currently servicing my black dialled Polarouter for me.

Here is a picture of the reverse of the dial. Does anyone know what the number or the star might signify?

It's unlikely I know but does anyone have any photos of the back of a Polarouter or early Polerouter dial that they could send me? The back of an SAS Polarouter dial would be very interesting.

Unfortunately there are some issues with the Cal 138ss movement so I'm looking for a donor movement. I'm about to add a post to the Wanted forum. Please contact me directly if you can help. Thanks.

Diabolik · Jan 4, 2018

I would expect it to be signed "singer" considering presumed date of manufacture.

Mazoue · Jan 4, 2018

Diabolik
I would expect it to be signed "singer" considering presumed date of manufacture.

Thanks. Do we know that Singer made and signed Polarouter dials? It's not often you see the reverse of dials so I'm unable to comment.

It would be great to have some others to compare it with.

Diabolik · Jan 4, 2018

The other thing that is odd is that the back has been painted. That is usually a sign of a redial.

Mazoue · Jan 4, 2018

Yes, that is an interesting observation. I have seen very few dials with the back painted.

I think I am edging towards concluding that this is a redial but it would be extremely helpful to see the reverse of some other black dialled Polarouter dials. If they were marked Singer and not painted on the reverse then that would probably seal it. The reverse of one of the SAS Polarouter dials would also be very interesting to see.

Interestingly, there are some UG dials for sale on eBay currently that are stamped 94*276 on the reverse, which is very close to the 94*076 that is stamped on the reverse of this one. Does anyone know anything about these numbers?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-...-silver-with-gold-markers-94-276/170919817304

Mine seems to be marked with an extra large star. I'm holding on to the faint hope that this denotes it as special in some way 😉

micampe · Jan 4, 2018

This is from an early cal 215 not a 138 but I’m pretty sure the dial is original and the back is painted.

Vitezi · Jan 4, 2018

Mazoue
Does anyone know what the number or the star might signify?

The star is a trademark of Stern Frères. I seem to recall Stern (now part of Richemont) made some cloisonné enamel dials for UG. I don't know if they were a routine dial supplier to UG. Here's the reverse of a Rolex dial made by Stern:

Rolex-ref.-8651-cloisonn%C3%A9-chimera-Stern-Freres-1.jpg

The reverse of the chimera cloisonné dial with the star logo of dial maker Stern Freres. Photo courtesy Phillips Watches
(Source: http://watchesbysjx.com/2016/07/why-are-vintage-cloisonne-enamel-dial-watches-collectible.html)

A recent article by the 'dink on them:
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/in-depth-how-are-the-dials-of-the-audemars-piguet-royal-oak

Mazoue · Jan 4, 2018

Vitezi
The star is a trademark of Stern Frères. I seem to recall Stern (now part of Richemont) made some cloisonné enamel dials for UG. I don't know if they were a routine dial supplier to UG.

Thanks, that's very interesting. I understand that the numbers before the star indicate the Stern Frères client code e.g. 103 in your example denotes Rolex, Omega was 89 and Longines 71.

Does anyone know whether UG was 94?

Carlton-Browne · Jan 4, 2018

Mazoue
Interestingly, there are some UG dials for sale on eBay currently that are stamped 94*276 on the reverse, which is very close to the 94*076 that is stamped on the reverse of this one. Does anyone know anything about these numbers?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-...-silver-with-gold-markers-94-276/170919817304

Mine seems to be marked with an extra large star. I'm holding on to the faint hope that this denotes it as special in some way 😉

I think I have one of those dials loose somewhere. I'll try to take a picture of the reverse tomorrow.

Vitezi · Jan 4, 2018

This example on the 'bay suggests "U67" as a client code? It is from a later time period than your watch so perhaps not relevant, other than as another example of a Stern dial for UG. Maybe a research inquiry to Stern might yield some clues.

Mazoue · Jan 4, 2018

I've seen some very elaborate enamel dials made by Stern Frères for UG in the 1950s. It doesn't seem impossible that UG would go to Stern Frères for a small batch of bespoke hand-painted dials with the SAS logo.

Unlike UG, it seems that Stern Frères do still have very good records as Phillips catalogues occasionally refer to their archives in relation to enamel dials.

However unlikely, it does seem worthwhile checking whether they have a record of 94*076 in their records. I'll see what I can find out.

Mazoue · Jan 9, 2018

Here's another UG dial, that appears to be Stern Freres, with numbering in the same format as mine i.e. 94*xxx.

It does appear possible that 94 was the Stern Freres client code for UG. If my understanding of their numbering system is correct then 076 would be the order number for my dial, which presumably makes it fairly early.

I'm trying my best to gain access to the Stern Freres archives and will report back if I succeed.

Does anyone else have any UG dials (not Singer or Beyeler) with this style of numbering on the reverse to add weight to the theory?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1960s-UNIVERSAL-WATCH-DIAL/273011408454

Vitezi · Jan 9, 2018

It has the big star on it too, like the SAS dial.

Mazoue · Jan 10, 2018

Yes, I'm beginning to think that I might be on to something.

It does appear that the raw material, the brass dial, is kosher and that it may have started life as a UG dial. The question remains whether the SAS dial painting/printing is original.

If these dials were made by Stern Freres, then their records should be able to answer that question. I'm not sure how easy it is going to be to access those records however.

Diabolik · Jan 10, 2018

I

Mazoue
Here's another UG dial, that appears to be Stern Freres, with numbering in the same format as mine i.e. 94*xxx.

It does appear possible that 94 was the Stern Freres client code for UG. If my understanding of their numbering system is correct then 076 would be the order number for my dial, which presumably makes it fairly early.

I'm trying my best to gain access to the Stern Freres archives and will report back if I succeed.

Does anyone else have any UG dials (not Singer or Beyeler) with this style of numbering on the reverse to add weight to the theory?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1960s-UNIVERSAL-WATCH-DIAL/273011408454

The dial you show is not an original UG dial but a reprint. Impossible to say what model or era it pertains to and very difficult to draw any conclusions 😡

Mazoue · Jan 10, 2018

Fair enough. I've not drawn any conclusions yet other than it does at least seem like a line of enquiry that is worth pursuing.

If I can access the Stern Freres records then I should be able to find out whether this is a Stern Freres dial, when it was produced and whether it was produced for UG. The research may well help me reach the conclusion that it is a redial but that numbering on the back of the dial is the only clue that I have and it does therefore seem worth following up.

Ps I'm not sure that my post warranted the "mad" emoji?

Diabolik · Jan 10, 2018

The emoj was not meant to imply anything of the sort. It is an expression of doubt and skepticism ....

That it is a stern is clear and that there is a good change that it was produced for UG. HOwever, the SAS connection is far from clear.

Your best bet is to find a black SAS dial and do a detailed comparison, front and back.

SAS Polarouter - Black Dial

Mazoue

Diabolik

Mazoue

Mazoue

Diabolik

Mazoue

Diabolik

Mazoue

micampe

Vitezi

Mazoue

Carlton-Browne

Vitezi

Mazoue

Mazoue

Vitezi

Mazoue

Diabolik

Mazoue

Diabolik

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